the-compact
Road Advisory Committee Monday, June 15, 2026 · 94 min

Bloomfield Township Road Advisory Committee Meeting on June 10, 2026

Transcript

Click any timestamp to jump the video to that moment. Auto-transcribed; expect occasional errors on proper nouns.

  1. First item is the approval of the minutes of the May 13th meeting. We've all had an opportunity to read the minutes. Is there any changes, any corrections, or any comment on the minutes? Move to approve. Move and support, all those in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Okay, first thing is public comment. It's an opportunity to say what you have, anything you have in your mind. We'll also have some comment again, questions after the presentations, but if there's something you want to say, anything, just come up to the here, name, address, you have three minutes and tell us what you think. Hi there, I'm Patty Marshall and I live at 420 Wilshire Drive in the Hickory Grove Road sub, also known as the Hickory Grove Road, Square Lake Road bypass slash business loop. I'm here to continue to draw attention to the dire situation we face in our neighborhood every single day and to request help from the township, the RCOC, and the police department for solutions. My house is located at the exact point where the cut through traffic from all five entry points into our sub converge, so I have a front view of the ridiculously dangerous traffic situation we face every day. What makes this situation in our sub unique is our borders, our Square Lake Road, Telegraph Road, Telegraph Road, Hickory Grove Road, and Lazarus. So we're right there at the convergence there. Arguably the most congested and fastest roads in the township. Our sub has five entrances, three on Hickory Grove Road and two on Square Lake Road. Arguably, I would think most subs have one to three. We have five. So it makes cut through traffic extremely easy because of all the access points. The main route that cuts through the entire sub is basically a rambling way to Wilshire Drive into the Chestnut Run sub, and then it ends at Devon right at Losser, where Square Lake is. And it's actually a 1.2-mile-long stretch that does not have one stop sign, yield sign, speed bump, or anything that would make a traffic slowdown. So it's literally, like, built to be a cutthroat. There's also a blind curve where our sub and the Chestnut Road sub meet, which makes it also challenging because traffic, you know, you can't see the cars coming.

  2. where the cut through traffic from all five entry points into our sub converge, so I have a front view of the ridiculously dangerous traffic situation we face every day. What makes this situation in our sub unique is our borders, our Square Lake Road, Telegraph Road, Telegraph Road, Hickory Grove Road, and Lazarus. So we're right there at the convergence there. Arguably the most congested and fastest roads in the township. Our sub has five entrances, three on Hickory Grove Road and two on Square Lake Road. Arguably, I would think most subs have one to three. We have five. So it makes cut through traffic extremely easy because of all the access points. The main route that cuts through the entire sub is basically a rambling way to Wilshire Drive into the Chestnut Run sub, and then it ends at Devon right at Losser, where Square Lake is. And it's actually a 1.2-mile-long stretch that does not have one stop sign, yield sign, speed bump, or anything that would make a traffic slowdown. So it's literally, like, built to be a cutthroat. There's also a blind curve where our sub and the Chestnut Road sub meet, which makes it also challenging because traffic, you know, you can't see the cars coming. Navigation apps such as Waze, Apple Maps, Google Maps, and even Uber direct traffic to cut through our neighborhood whenever there's a backup on Hickory Grove or Square Lake, which is all the time, like eastbound. So we're even getting, you know, the cutthroat traffic is being directed through our sub. The main concern is the volume and the speed of the traffic through our sub. It's basically 7.30 a.m. to 9.30 a.m. and 3.30 to 6.30 p.m. literally every single day, except obviously we can't. The cut-through traffic is relentless. There's large trucks, cement trucks, there was a car carrier with two cars on it going through there. It's always major trucks, cement trucks with their barrel rolling, as well as residential vehicles. We have no sidewalks, so it's almost like you can't even walk through the sub at these times either because of the relentless amount of traffic, and that's also the school bus route, so the school bus stops are extremely dangerous as well. The kids are out there, and they've got the traffic that goes both directions. In our neighborhood, we bug the police daily, and I don't even know if that's ... I mean,

  3. Navigation apps such as Waze, Apple Maps, Google Maps, and even Uber direct traffic to cut through our neighborhood whenever there's a backup on Hickory Grove or Square Lake, which is all the time, like eastbound. So we're even getting, you know, the cutthroat traffic is being directed through our sub. The main concern is the volume and the speed of the traffic through our sub. It's basically 7.30 a.m. to 9.30 a.m. and 3.30 to 6.30 p.m. literally every single day, except obviously we can't. The cut-through traffic is relentless. There's large trucks, cement trucks, there was a car carrier with two cars on it going through there. It's always major trucks, cement trucks with their barrel rolling, as well as residential vehicles. We have no sidewalks, so it's almost like you can't even walk through the sub at these times either because of the relentless amount of traffic, and that's also the school bus route, so the school bus stops are extremely dangerous as well. The kids are out there, and they've got the traffic that goes both directions. In our neighborhood, we bug the police daily, and I don't even know if that's ... I mean, they can only do what they can do. We hate bugging them, but then they'll send cars in, but what can they really do except stop people that they may catch speeding. We've tried some guerrilla tactics. We've tried parking our cars on both sides of the street just to slow the traffic down. We've had a couple of residents put their own speed bumps up, which have obviously been told to take down, because you can't really do that. We are just begging for some solutions, so I'm just trying to draw attention to our neighborhood specifically. We've been asking for maybe signage that says no through traffic. I know none of these are perfect, and there's challenges with all of them, but we're at thinking no through traffic, which ... the certain points stop signs all along Wilshire speed bumps reduction of the speed limit from maybe 25 to 15 and possible permanent closure of some of our entrances so we've been told that we haven't been able to get any of those things but like I said we're just hoping for some kind of a discussion or anything is thinking outside of the box of things that we can do for our sub thank you so that's all thank you very much I just have a question you could help me a

  4. In our neighborhood, we bug the police daily, and I don't even know if that's ... I mean, they can only do what they can do. We hate bugging them, but then they'll send cars in, but what can they really do except stop people that they may catch speeding. We've tried some guerrilla tactics. We've tried parking our cars on both sides of the street just to slow the traffic down. We've had a couple of residents put their own speed bumps up, which have obviously been told to take down, because you can't really do that. We are just begging for some solutions, so I'm just trying to draw attention to our neighborhood specifically. We've been asking for maybe signage that says no through traffic. I know none of these are perfect, and there's challenges with all of them, but we're at thinking no through traffic, which ... the certain points stop signs all along Wilshire speed bumps reduction of the speed limit from maybe 25 to 15 and possible permanent closure of some of our entrances so we've been told that we haven't been able to get any of those things but like I said we're just hoping for some kind of a discussion or anything is thinking outside of the box of things that we can do for our sub thank you so that's all thank you very much I just have a question you could help me a lot where is Wilshire Wilshire Drive it's it's it cuts through it it's parallel to Hickory Grove Road so you've got Rambling White Coralville Aspen cuts it it's Wilshire's like inside the sub so there's so you see it going on it goes important Lone Pine and then Long Lake Road thank you so we're well aware of the problem and I just texted the chief if he's here to come in and address it Patty we have an HOA meeting with your association next week if in case you didn't know that I'll be there the chief of police will be there and we have done a traffic study and the numbers going through this neighborhood are sickening it's it's 11 000 cars a week that's and that fits with the i wasn't going to go into that now here but with speed bumps and some of the other things that the county the road commission will allow really yes if you can meet certain requirements and if those numbers are that high

  5. you so that's all thank you very much I just have a question you could help me a lot where is Wilshire Wilshire Drive it's it's it cuts through it it's parallel to Hickory Grove Road so you've got Rambling White Coralville Aspen cuts it it's Wilshire's like inside the sub so there's so you see it going on it goes important Lone Pine and then Long Lake Road thank you so we're well aware of the problem and I just texted the chief if he's here to come in and address it Patty we have an HOA meeting with your association next week if in case you didn't know that I'll be there the chief of police will be there and we have done a traffic study and the numbers going through this neighborhood are sickening it's it's 11 000 cars a week that's and that fits with the i wasn't going to go into that now here but with speed bumps and some of the other things that the county the road commission will allow really yes if you can meet certain requirements and if those numbers are that high that's part of the requirement so they can they will allow those things has to be a thousand vehicles a day yeah hang here jimmy here's jimmy now jimmy do you have a second you can come up to the podium i'm sorry ma'am can you just hold off a second wow that's that's real action yeah this is yeah yeah jimmy patty uh patty lives over off a chestnut run and that aspen area yeah hi there hi there this is our chief of police uh jimmy gallagher right there i know you're not you're not bugging me what can i answer i'm sorry i missed your daddy talked about how the traffic can we get speed bumps stop signs but kind of give her the gist of what you've been doing yeah so we we've gotten a ton of complaints from your neighborhood um and so our traffic this this april uh we our shifts our shifts for our police department start april 1st through march 31st so we were able to bring our traffic unit back that was one of the things we were trying to do once we've got our manpower well it's it's partially back so they've been spending a ton of time in there i don't know if you've seen them um i sat in there myself uh two times in the last two weeks and um we put our

  6. will allow really yes if you can meet certain requirements and if those numbers are that high that's part of the requirement so they can they will allow those things has to be a thousand vehicles a day yeah hang here jimmy here's jimmy now jimmy do you have a second you can come up to the podium i'm sorry ma'am can you just hold off a second wow that's that's real action yeah this is yeah yeah jimmy patty uh patty lives over off a chestnut run and that aspen area yeah hi there hi there this is our chief of police uh jimmy gallagher right there i know you're not you're not bugging me what can i answer i'm sorry i missed your daddy talked about how the traffic can we get speed bumps stop signs but kind of give her the gist of what you've been doing yeah so we we've gotten a ton of complaints from your neighborhood um and so our traffic this this april uh we our shifts our shifts for our police department start april 1st through march 31st so we were able to bring our traffic unit back that was one of the things we were trying to do once we've got our manpower well it's it's partially back so they've been spending a ton of time in there i don't know if you've seen them um i sat in there myself uh two times in the last two weeks and um we put our We put that traffic trailer on Wilshire. I leave it right in front of it. Okay. Well, I may have been sitting in your house the other day. But I want to say I think there was over 700 cars between 3 o'clock and 5 o'clock maybe. It was the number of cars. And then I just sat in there the other day, and it was nonstop vehicles. Now, the speed wasn't necessarily a problem. No, it's not. Some of them are. Some of them are. But when I stopped one car myself, and they were doing 32, which is quick in a subdivision, especially at that time of day, and I asked them a couple questions I wanted to know, and they were following their ways, which is a problem for us. And so we've asked, we're part of what they call TIA. Its name has changed, Traffic Improvement Association. It's now Office of Highway Safety something, T. Is it OHS-T? No, but it's OHS-T. They do our – they give us a lot of grant money to do targeted enforcement like click it or ticket, OWI enforcement, and distracted driving. They are coming into the neighborhood, and I believe they might have started this week in doing a traffic study.

  7. We put that traffic trailer on Wilshire. I leave it right in front of it. Okay. Well, I may have been sitting in your house the other day. But I want to say I think there was over 700 cars between 3 o'clock and 5 o'clock maybe. It was the number of cars. And then I just sat in there the other day, and it was nonstop vehicles. Now, the speed wasn't necessarily a problem. No, it's not. Some of them are. Some of them are. But when I stopped one car myself, and they were doing 32, which is quick in a subdivision, especially at that time of day, and I asked them a couple questions I wanted to know, and they were following their ways, which is a problem for us. And so we've asked, we're part of what they call TIA. Its name has changed, Traffic Improvement Association. It's now Office of Highway Safety something, T. Is it OHS-T? No, but it's OHS-T. They do our – they give us a lot of grant money to do targeted enforcement like click it or ticket, OWI enforcement, and distracted driving. They are coming into the neighborhood, and I believe they might have started this week in doing a traffic study. They've asked us to limit the number of police cars we have in there because that will alter the numbers. But that's not going to – we were sitting in there yesterday. I heard them out there yesterday. There is an absolute volume problem in your subdivision. All right, thank you. If I lived there, I'd be angry and I'm not so much. I mean, I'd be very frustrated. I don't have angry is the right word I couldn't believe the traffic through there the other day And then you get down to Devon and Devon is backing up It's all backed up And so people are going nowhere fast because they have to turn left out of on DeLosser from Devon and they can't even get out so We are well aware of the problem And we're trying to we but now I will tell you we've had a few residents calls and get mad at us that That we're in the neighborhood so much and that we're making their house their property values go down because they're we're trapped traffic stopping so many people What we have been doing so a couple things on speed bumps in that and Mr. Metzler is here. He might be from from his old days there speed bumps in a neighborhood We're told are they effective they could be but they're the wear and tear to your vehicles going over them every single day Time and time again becomes a problem And sometimes yes, they'll slow cars down, but sometimes you have other drivers who think that they're ramps

  8. They are coming into the neighborhood, and I believe they might have started this week in doing a traffic study. They've asked us to limit the number of police cars we have in there because that will alter the numbers. But that's not going to – we were sitting in there yesterday. I heard them out there yesterday. There is an absolute volume problem in your subdivision. All right, thank you. If I lived there, I'd be angry and I'm not so much. I mean, I'd be very frustrated. I don't have angry is the right word I couldn't believe the traffic through there the other day And then you get down to Devon and Devon is backing up It's all backed up And so people are going nowhere fast because they have to turn left out of on DeLosser from Devon and they can't even get out so We are well aware of the problem And we're trying to we but now I will tell you we've had a few residents calls and get mad at us that That we're in the neighborhood so much and that we're making their house their property values go down because they're we're trapped traffic stopping so many people What we have been doing so a couple things on speed bumps in that and Mr. Metzler is here. He might be from from his old days there speed bumps in a neighborhood We're told are they effective they could be but they're the wear and tear to your vehicles going over them every single day Time and time again becomes a problem And sometimes yes, they'll slow cars down, but sometimes you have other drivers who think that they're ramps Uh-huh, and so that's one concern and then snow plows is another concern. I don't know the Much of that portion of it, but I've heard that that's a problem for snow plows the Other side of that is no cut through traffic or traffic signs. That's that say no left turn off a Hickory Grove Well, then that inconvenience is the neighborhood because you can't turn and so Then if you there's some signs that are in a neighborhood across square lake from you on the north side of square lake between woodward franklin that has signs those are homeowners association signs there's no traffic control order a law enforcement agency unless there's an emergency cannot stop cars from going down roadways open to the general public and so we can't say don't turn it has to be a traffic control order from the county has to be a study that's why we're kind of doing it now could we are we could we look into um doing the no left turn or no cut no through traffic through the subdivision the problem with that is enforcement because if we're there to enforce it we're going to have to follow a car from hickory grove all the way out to lot to devon and losser and by then all they have to do is make one entrance into a driveway and then then we're starting back over so we're

  9. And sometimes yes, they'll slow cars down, but sometimes you have other drivers who think that they're ramps Uh-huh, and so that's one concern and then snow plows is another concern. I don't know the Much of that portion of it, but I've heard that that's a problem for snow plows the Other side of that is no cut through traffic or traffic signs. That's that say no left turn off a Hickory Grove Well, then that inconvenience is the neighborhood because you can't turn and so Then if you there's some signs that are in a neighborhood across square lake from you on the north side of square lake between woodward franklin that has signs those are homeowners association signs there's no traffic control order a law enforcement agency unless there's an emergency cannot stop cars from going down roadways open to the general public and so we can't say don't turn it has to be a traffic control order from the county has to be a study that's why we're kind of doing it now could we are we could we look into um doing the no left turn or no cut no through traffic through the subdivision the problem with that is enforcement because if we're there to enforce it we're going to have to follow a car from hickory grove all the way out to lot to devon and losser and by then all they have to do is make one entrance into a driveway and then then we're starting back over so we're we're trying to find some solutions there one of the solutions hopefully um if the county does move forward within the city of bloomfield hills um because they kind of own that intersection is my understanding um if they do the roundabout they're talking about could be very effective that's not for me i'm not an engineer but that would continuously flow traffic on hickory grove not forcing people to turn um the second part to that is if they decide to widen that and put a left turn lane because that's what's happening is the cars are getting to the light right they can't make a left turn because the traffic coming westbound four cars get through and then then nobody else can so it's backing up but i'll tell you the other day when i was there i was monitoring hickory grove traffic just to see what entry point where they were using Hickory Rose wasn't even backed up they were anticipating Hickory Grove being backed up and they were hitting the first street which I think is rambling way instead of going down to sea over the hill and so we are well aware of the problem I don't know we can ticket our way out of it I don't know that 100% of enforcement is going to be our goal is to put our cars in there but because we can't stop them for cutting through I think people just like okay I just can't speed in here you know but if every one of them that we

  10. they have to do is make one entrance into a driveway and then then we're starting back over so we're we're trying to find some solutions there one of the solutions hopefully um if the county does move forward within the city of bloomfield hills um because they kind of own that intersection is my understanding um if they do the roundabout they're talking about could be very effective that's not for me i'm not an engineer but that would continuously flow traffic on hickory grove not forcing people to turn um the second part to that is if they decide to widen that and put a left turn lane because that's what's happening is the cars are getting to the light right they can't make a left turn because the traffic coming westbound four cars get through and then then nobody else can so it's backing up but i'll tell you the other day when i was there i was monitoring hickory grove traffic just to see what entry point where they were using Hickory Rose wasn't even backed up they were anticipating Hickory Grove being backed up and they were hitting the first street which I think is rambling way instead of going down to sea over the hill and so we are well aware of the problem I don't know we can ticket our way out of it I don't know that 100% of enforcement is going to be our goal is to put our cars in there but because we can't stop them for cutting through I think people just like okay I just can't speed in here you know but if every one of them that we talked to said that they were following their just about everyone following their driving apps so when when 696 opens back up which I think is if I'm not mistaken maybe you guys always end of this year I thought it was I thought it was completion this year is that anybody know I don't I thought it was this year late this fall yeah we'll see what happens with that you know I've noticed the westbound traffic since the 696 and Woodward exit has been closed why that would necessarily affect westbound but I sat westbound the other day at 930 in the morning for over 15 or 20 minutes between chestnut run and telegraph only not even and that was at 930 in the morning so that was after rush hour the schools are getting light seniors are out we are having a meeting next Tuesday here in the auditorium I think we said 7 p.m. for anybody in the neighborhood because we want to get front of it with the neighborhood yep um because i we see the frustration on the residents and we we support your frustration um it's just what we can do in the meantime to get it to get it out of the volume of cars uh it was a little over 11 000 cars in a week on on just on wilshire road which

  11. I think people just like okay I just can't speed in here you know but if every one of them that we talked to said that they were following their just about everyone following their driving apps so when when 696 opens back up which I think is if I'm not mistaken maybe you guys always end of this year I thought it was I thought it was completion this year is that anybody know I don't I thought it was this year late this fall yeah we'll see what happens with that you know I've noticed the westbound traffic since the 696 and Woodward exit has been closed why that would necessarily affect westbound but I sat westbound the other day at 930 in the morning for over 15 or 20 minutes between chestnut run and telegraph only not even and that was at 930 in the morning so that was after rush hour the schools are getting light seniors are out we are having a meeting next Tuesday here in the auditorium I think we said 7 p.m. for anybody in the neighborhood because we want to get front of it with the neighborhood yep um because i we see the frustration on the residents and we we support your frustration um it's just what we can do in the meantime to get it to get it out of the volume of cars uh it was a little over 11 000 cars in a week on on just on wilshire road which their roads are not designed in that neighborhood to handle a consistent flow of traffic that day and i support you know it's obviously confirmed is that a subdivision that had the roads done recently no some of it maybe there's some okay but that road's not designed for 11 000 cars a day up in a week um and that's what's happening down there so um thank you thank you can you just sit tight for a minute i think we have another comment on our road here okay yeah um i'm terry better i live at 3701 franklin which is between long lake and hickory grove and um i have been talking to your department and um i apologize mr mccready i just sent you a letter i think this week yes um that just shows you a picture of my house and i have a house on the east side of franklin and i have lake property on the west side there's about four or five of us and i'm right on the curve of franklin and i have every spring i call the township police and they are very sympathetic they understand you

  12. the volume of cars uh it was a little over 11 000 cars in a week on on just on wilshire road which their roads are not designed in that neighborhood to handle a consistent flow of traffic that day and i support you know it's obviously confirmed is that a subdivision that had the roads done recently no some of it maybe there's some okay but that road's not designed for 11 000 cars a day up in a week um and that's what's happening down there so um thank you thank you can you just sit tight for a minute i think we have another comment on our road here okay yeah um i'm terry better i live at 3701 franklin which is between long lake and hickory grove and um i have been talking to your department and um i apologize mr mccready i just sent you a letter i think this week yes um that just shows you a picture of my house and i have a house on the east side of franklin and i have lake property on the west side there's about four or five of us and i'm right on the curve of franklin and i have every spring i call the township police and they are very sympathetic they understand you the speed limit is 40 35 I think in the curve our residential area has grown there we now have the entrance to the high school and like I said I've lived there 33 years and 33 years ago I was young enough I could run across to the lake and run back I've also shrunk a bit so when I walk up the steps I can't see the cars they can't see me electric cars I can't hear I mean I have a handicapped child to the south of me so I've called the county and they point to the township I call the township police they come out with traffic trailers and they have said they're gonna bring one out as soon as you're done at the elementary schools and and also possibly a study but I'm just don't know who to go to anymore I've been you know I would say every spring it happens the traffic and you know just increases and as I've been here it just gets greater and greater every year so I really think there needs to be a traffic study I think the speed limit needs to be changed from when it was imposed 40 miles per hour because we've had at least three homes being built we have Hickory Grove on the you

  13. the speed limit is 40 35 I think in the curve our residential area has grown there we now have the entrance to the high school and like I said I've lived there 33 years and 33 years ago I was young enough I could run across to the lake and run back I've also shrunk a bit so when I walk up the steps I can't see the cars they can't see me electric cars I can't hear I mean I have a handicapped child to the south of me so I've called the county and they point to the township I call the township police they come out with traffic trailers and they have said they're gonna bring one out as soon as you're done at the elementary schools and and also possibly a study but I'm just don't know who to go to anymore I've been you know I would say every spring it happens the traffic and you know just increases and as I've been here it just gets greater and greater every year so I really think there needs to be a traffic study I think the speed limit needs to be changed from when it was imposed 40 miles per hour because we've had at least three homes being built we have Hickory Grove on the you know the west side we've got that subdivision being built we have a lot more traffic than we did 33 years ago so I you know I didn't know where to start I've kind of gotten frustrated because I've had two government tell me different things. And quite honestly, trying to talk to RCOC is like pulling teeth. So that's why I'm here. And like I said, I did just drop a letter off for you, Mike. Yeah, I heard. I saw it. Terry, who did you talk to at RCOC? Do you recall? Well, I call the front. You know, I call their number and I tell them what my thoughts are because, you know, I thought it'd be nice to have a pedestrian sign. There is one, but it's like the second house in off of Franklin. The curve is where you have all the people walking across the street. So that sign, in my mind, is useless unless someone's driving on the sidewalk. I talked about a zebra and she said, oh, no, you've got to talk to the township and they will do a study. So then I called the township. I sent a couple forms through, but I never got a response back. I don't know if they went through.

  14. we've had at least three homes being built we have Hickory Grove on the you know the west side we've got that subdivision being built we have a lot more traffic than we did 33 years ago so I you know I didn't know where to start I've kind of gotten frustrated because I've had two government tell me different things. And quite honestly, trying to talk to RCOC is like pulling teeth. So that's why I'm here. And like I said, I did just drop a letter off for you, Mike. Yeah, I heard. I saw it. Terry, who did you talk to at RCOC? Do you recall? Well, I call the front. You know, I call their number and I tell them what my thoughts are because, you know, I thought it'd be nice to have a pedestrian sign. There is one, but it's like the second house in off of Franklin. The curve is where you have all the people walking across the street. So that sign, in my mind, is useless unless someone's driving on the sidewalk. I talked about a zebra and she said, oh, no, you've got to talk to the township and they will do a study. So then I called the township. I sent a couple forms through, but I never got a response back. I don't know if they went through. I did e-mail them the same letter I e-mailed you or I brought over to you. So that's why I'm here. You know, I saw what this was, you know, a committee for roads. I thought, well, let's try it. And your department's great, Mr. I would like to start with the. Jimmy, you come up to that. One of the concerns about doing a study on those types of roads, you know, LASTER is one that we talk about all the time, is it's an 85th percentile. the speed is when they do that study and so if we go to a road and the 85th percentile is 45 on Franklin Road, we run the risk that the speed limit goes up. And this is what I get told every year and I almost feel like it shuts me down that I don't want this study because of the fact that- A lot of people choose not to do the study because there is- You may raise the speed limit? It's an 85th percentile, I believe it is, on studies of that nature. What if we vote against raising the speed limit? Can you do that? No, because our roads are owned by the county. So all the roads, the speed limits. Subdivision roadways, in subdivisions it's 25. So if you see a subdivision sign, you can go into the private areas like a condo complex and they can have 15.

  15. I don't know if they went through. I did e-mail them the same letter I e-mailed you or I brought over to you. So that's why I'm here. You know, I saw what this was, you know, a committee for roads. I thought, well, let's try it. And your department's great, Mr. I would like to start with the. Jimmy, you come up to that. One of the concerns about doing a study on those types of roads, you know, LASTER is one that we talk about all the time, is it's an 85th percentile. the speed is when they do that study and so if we go to a road and the 85th percentile is 45 on Franklin Road, we run the risk that the speed limit goes up. And this is what I get told every year and I almost feel like it shuts me down that I don't want this study because of the fact that- A lot of people choose not to do the study because there is- You may raise the speed limit? It's an 85th percentile, I believe it is, on studies of that nature. What if we vote against raising the speed limit? Can you do that? No, because our roads are owned by the county. So all the roads, the speed limits. Subdivision roadways, in subdivisions it's 25. So if you see a subdivision sign, you can go into the private areas like a condo complex and they can have 15. We can't enforce that unless they adopt the Mission Motor Vehicle Code in those subdivisions. So some of our condo complexes do, but those aren't enforceable. The ones that are enforceable are the ones that have a traffic control order. They're stating what the speed limit is on the roads. And I think if you go back in time over 75, one of the reasons why the speed limit's up north is a little bit higher is because the percentage of speed when they did the study is higher. So, you know, I'm not an engineer when it comes to those things. I just know those are some of the considerations. Lasseter's a popular one I use because there's always been discussion on Lasseter Road between Long Lake and Hickory Grove when it was 25. You know, hey, all of Lasseter needs to be 25 through there. All right. Let's go. run that risk because the rest of last was 40 and so it's there's just there's a catch-22 to do in some of it as far as a road study on like a Franklin you know I honestly don't know if whose responsibility that would be and frankly what I would consider is a more major roadway or secondary roadway for Bloomfield Township I would think that's the county I'm sure we could ask you know our again I still refer to him as TIA but to look at that we run the risk of

  16. Subdivision roadways, in subdivisions it's 25. So if you see a subdivision sign, you can go into the private areas like a condo complex and they can have 15. We can't enforce that unless they adopt the Mission Motor Vehicle Code in those subdivisions. So some of our condo complexes do, but those aren't enforceable. The ones that are enforceable are the ones that have a traffic control order. They're stating what the speed limit is on the roads. And I think if you go back in time over 75, one of the reasons why the speed limit's up north is a little bit higher is because the percentage of speed when they did the study is higher. So, you know, I'm not an engineer when it comes to those things. I just know those are some of the considerations. Lasseter's a popular one I use because there's always been discussion on Lasseter Road between Long Lake and Hickory Grove when it was 25. You know, hey, all of Lasseter needs to be 25 through there. All right. Let's go. run that risk because the rest of last was 40 and so it's there's just there's a catch-22 to do in some of it as far as a road study on like a Franklin you know I honestly don't know if whose responsibility that would be and frankly what I would consider is a more major roadway or secondary roadway for Bloomfield Township I would think that's the county I'm sure we could ask you know our again I still refer to him as TIA but to look at that we run the risk of doing that and this part of the problem there is the school the entrance to the school being right off of Franklin Road now kids are using Franklin Road probably more so the volume of traffic a lot of times when people think we have a speed problem it's not so much a speed problem it's a volume problem that's a suggestion so when people are not driving just 48 they're driving 45, 47 and then they're coming around the curb and as you see there's not a lot of room I've had numerous mailboxes removed the post office and I worked out of Yale I've moved my mailbox to my driveway and the post office was happy about that I mean the carrier was very happy because if you see where I am and the other thing I have to say about the school entrance I was at all those meetings before the entrance started before they built that And we were told, oh, you wouldn't see any more traffic down Franklin. Our whole street said, yes, we will, because it's a great country. You know, come west on Hickory Road, and then they go south on Franklin. So we see during, and then we have high school kids.

  17. know our again I still refer to him as TIA but to look at that we run the risk of doing that and this part of the problem there is the school the entrance to the school being right off of Franklin Road now kids are using Franklin Road probably more so the volume of traffic a lot of times when people think we have a speed problem it's not so much a speed problem it's a volume problem that's a suggestion so when people are not driving just 48 they're driving 45, 47 and then they're coming around the curb and as you see there's not a lot of room I've had numerous mailboxes removed the post office and I worked out of Yale I've moved my mailbox to my driveway and the post office was happy about that I mean the carrier was very happy because if you see where I am and the other thing I have to say about the school entrance I was at all those meetings before the entrance started before they built that And we were told, oh, you wouldn't see any more traffic down Franklin. Our whole street said, yes, we will, because it's a great country. You know, come west on Hickory Road, and then they go south on Franklin. So we see during, and then we have high school kids. We all remember what we were like driving when we, you know, were young. So, you know, it's just, so I bring it to you guys. Thank you. Thanks, Jimmy. Thank you very much. Thank you. You're, I do understand. I used to live on Hickory Grove, so I understand your concern. One good news is this picture. This is Franklin, and that's my entrance to my beachfront. The road looks like better shape than my neighborhood. Yeah, well, we just had it done a couple years ago. Oh, that's why. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you. All right. I don't, there's nobody else here for public comment anyway. So, all right. Let's move on to the next item is the presentation. Darren, you want to talk about that? Yeah. It's very appropriate. I just started storming outside before I got up here to give this monthly presentation. So, again, I know we've had this conversation numerous times at the 30,000-foot level, but supervisor McCready asked me a couple weeks ago to prepare a little bit more in-depth presentation on what, you know, how to understand new. Thank you.

  18. So we see during, and then we have high school kids. We all remember what we were like driving when we, you know, were young. So, you know, it's just, so I bring it to you guys. Thank you. Thanks, Jimmy. Thank you very much. Thank you. You're, I do understand. I used to live on Hickory Grove, so I understand your concern. One good news is this picture. This is Franklin, and that's my entrance to my beachfront. The road looks like better shape than my neighborhood. Yeah, well, we just had it done a couple years ago. Oh, that's why. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you. All right. I don't, there's nobody else here for public comment anyway. So, all right. Let's move on to the next item is the presentation. Darren, you want to talk about that? Yeah. It's very appropriate. I just started storming outside before I got up here to give this monthly presentation. So, again, I know we've had this conversation numerous times at the 30,000-foot level, but supervisor McCready asked me a couple weeks ago to prepare a little bit more in-depth presentation on what, you know, how to understand new. Thank you. construction and what it does to property tax revenue and then also kind of explain a little bit about the distribution of property taxes, where that money goes, who gets what, and how much the township gets to keep. So I've got a little bit more in detailed presentation here today. I guess if you have questions, let's wait till the end so I can get through it and then try and answer as many questions as I can in the time we have. So again, the purpose of this presentation is to provide a clear and transparent overview of five different topics or five different areas. One, how new construction properties impact township revenues, how Headley rollbacks affect millage rates, the difference between total property taxes collected and the amount retained by the township, how property tax revenues are distributed amongst the various taxing authorities, and then to try and address a few of the common misconceptions regarding property taxes and municipal revenue, particularly the township's revenue. So I got it. I'm not an expert at PowerPoint,

  19. construction and what it does to property tax revenue and then also kind of explain a little bit about the distribution of property taxes, where that money goes, who gets what, and how much the township gets to keep. So I've got a little bit more in detailed presentation here today. I guess if you have questions, let's wait till the end so I can get through it and then try and answer as many questions as I can in the time we have. So again, the purpose of this presentation is to provide a clear and transparent overview of five different topics or five different areas. One, how new construction properties impact township revenues, how Headley rollbacks affect millage rates, the difference between total property taxes collected and the amount retained by the township, how property tax revenues are distributed amongst the various taxing authorities, and then to try and address a few of the common misconceptions regarding property taxes and municipal revenue, particularly the township's revenue. So I got it. I'm not an expert at PowerPoint, so I was a little nervous about that. So a couple of key terms for... everybody to kind of be aware of, maybe even some refresher for some people, but SEV, state equalized value, that represents 50% of the market value of a property. Taxable value is the value we use to calculate out tax dollars. Millage rate, again, one mil equals one dollar for every thousand of taxable value. And then tax bill formulas is very, very simple. It's taxable value times the millage rate divided by a thousand equals whatever you're going to pay in property taxes. So that's pretty straightforward. I created an example. My intention was to use this as a new construction property. So if, if we have a house that was constructed last year, it's on the roll this year at a hundred percent, the taxable value is calculated at a half million dollars, which means

  20. municipal revenue, particularly the township's revenue. So I got it. I'm not an expert at PowerPoint, so I was a little nervous about that. So a couple of key terms for... everybody to kind of be aware of, maybe even some refresher for some people, but SEV, state equalized value, that represents 50% of the market value of a property. Taxable value is the value we use to calculate out tax dollars. Millage rate, again, one mil equals one dollar for every thousand of taxable value. And then tax bill formulas is very, very simple. It's taxable value times the millage rate divided by a thousand equals whatever you're going to pay in property taxes. So that's pretty straightforward. I created an example. My intention was to use this as a new construction property. So if, if we have a house that was constructed last year, it's on the roll this year at a hundred percent, the taxable value is calculated at a half million dollars, which means assessed values, $500,000, which means that the house is worth about a million dollars. So, uh, I just took an average millage rate here in the township. It's 37 mills. That's our homestead millage rate. Um, so again, the calculation and property taxes is half million dollars times 37 mills divided by a thousand equals $18,500. And. property taxes so i know one of the one of the questions that's been raised over and over again is that all these new constructions the township's receiving a windfall of cash because everybody's paying eighteen thousand dollars some of the more expensive ones are you know at forty fifty sixty thousand dollars um not necessarily true right so in this particular case and and this same rationale holds through holds true no matter how expensive the property is um the township only gets a little bit less than 10 mils so yes the tax bills may be sixty eighty thousand dollars but the township gets 10 mils of that so um you know again to my important note the township only

  21. this year at a hundred percent, the taxable value is calculated at a half million dollars, which means assessed values, $500,000, which means that the house is worth about a million dollars. So, uh, I just took an average millage rate here in the township. It's 37 mills. That's our homestead millage rate. Um, so again, the calculation and property taxes is half million dollars times 37 mills divided by a thousand equals $18,500. And. property taxes so i know one of the one of the questions that's been raised over and over again is that all these new constructions the township's receiving a windfall of cash because everybody's paying eighteen thousand dollars some of the more expensive ones are you know at forty fifty sixty thousand dollars um not necessarily true right so in this particular case and and this same rationale holds through holds true no matter how expensive the property is um the township only gets a little bit less than 10 mils so yes the tax bills may be sixty eighty thousand dollars but the township gets 10 mils of that so um you know again to my important note the township only retains a small small portion of the total property taxes collected um to that point where does all the money go then so township collects eighteen thousand five hundred dollars in property taxes from said property and it goes to local school districts oakland county community colleges public libraries transit and regional authorities which is the the smart portion of your tax bill uh public safety um township general operating and then special assessments um or other voted millages now in regard to that special assessment it wouldn't be for roads it's it's for police and fire special assessments that some communities have I believe it's Canton Township and maybe even Northville Township Canton for sure can has a public safety special assessment so it's it's a millage based assessment spread amongst all properties commercial industrial residential in their community so that's that's where that special assessments referring to not a road special assessment so township operating revenue while the total tax

  22. the township gets 10 mils of that so um you know again to my important note the township only retains a small small portion of the total property taxes collected um to that point where does all the money go then so township collects eighteen thousand five hundred dollars in property taxes from said property and it goes to local school districts oakland county community colleges public libraries transit and regional authorities which is the the smart portion of your tax bill uh public safety um township general operating and then special assessments um or other voted millages now in regard to that special assessment it wouldn't be for roads it's it's for police and fire special assessments that some communities have I believe it's Canton Township and maybe even Northville Township Canton for sure can has a public safety special assessment so it's it's a millage based assessment spread amongst all properties commercial industrial residential in their community so that's that's where that special assessments referring to not a road special assessment so township operating revenue while the total tax bills may be may appear to be pretty significant infrastructure what infrastructure isn't that road is separate and water and sewer is separate right so it comes from the 10 mill the infrastructure oh well that's part of the yeah that would probably fall into the general operating so that would be part of the 10 mills yeah okay so it's not but water and sewer is separate he was talking about water and sewer all the bills yeah yes yeah water and sewer bill yeah that's that's completely separate yeah yeah yeah so this infrastructure includes what what what is included in the infrastructure here well that would be that would be that would be probably we talking where where I don't I don't see where you say infrastructure you're referring to our general money we collect for our general millage you have listed nicely uh all the items where the 10 mills go to you know administration assessment elections public safety then infrastructure maintenance

  23. a road special assessment so township operating revenue while the total tax bills may be may appear to be pretty significant infrastructure what infrastructure isn't that road is separate and water and sewer is separate right so it comes from the 10 mill the infrastructure oh well that's part of the yeah that would probably fall into the general operating so that would be part of the 10 mills yeah okay so it's not but water and sewer is separate he was talking about water and sewer all the bills yeah yes yeah water and sewer bill yeah that's that's completely separate yeah yeah yeah so this infrastructure includes what what what is included in the infrastructure here well that would be that would be that would be probably we talking where where I don't I don't see where you say infrastructure you're referring to our general money we collect for our general millage you have listed nicely uh all the items where the 10 mills go to you know administration assessment elections public safety then infrastructure maintenance next slide next slide yeah see that right down there under important oh oh infrastructure that would refer to things like um um township properties that kind of stuff buildings um parking lots you know repair replace parking lots sidewalks you know if we have sidewalks that needed to be replaced here on township campus that kind of thing it's it's not like it's not sanitary or storm water that here at the township that's all of us that's all separated out so yeah and we refer to that as a it's an enterprise fund yeah and that we bill as we get the water we we get built so we bill all right and then so it's got what gets flushed gets flushed back so generally speaking infrastructure in the county township campus township campus buildings roofs acs you know windows carpet that kind of stuff um so uh with that you know if you're looking at the tax bill on it's on the surface you're looking at wow 18 500 that's that's a big number um but of that 18 500 approximately 5 000 of that stays here at the township to cover all of our all of our

  24. you know administration assessment elections public safety then infrastructure maintenance next slide next slide yeah see that right down there under important oh oh infrastructure that would refer to things like um um township properties that kind of stuff buildings um parking lots you know repair replace parking lots sidewalks you know if we have sidewalks that needed to be replaced here on township campus that kind of thing it's it's not like it's not sanitary or storm water that here at the township that's all of us that's all separated out so yeah and we refer to that as a it's an enterprise fund yeah and that we bill as we get the water we we get built so we bill all right and then so it's got what gets flushed gets flushed back so generally speaking infrastructure in the county township campus township campus buildings roofs acs you know windows carpet that kind of stuff um so uh with that you know if you're looking at the tax bill on it's on the surface you're looking at wow 18 500 that's that's a big number um but of that 18 500 approximately 5 000 of that stays here at the township to cover all of our all of our different expenses administrative operations assessing services elections public safety infrastructure maintenance planning zoning parks and rec if we had one and then just general you know so you have to take a net loss when you put in a new or a newer home with its greater in value no I'm not talking about a difference between an old house that has gotten torn down on a new house I'm talking about a house that's constructed if the house is a half million dollars that's what we go I see okay so so yeah so the township doesn't take a net loss we just don't realize you don't realize a big game exactly there is no such thing as a big game we're not getting eighteen thousand five hundred dollars not a big beautiful bill correct correct right but I try so all right so what is the Hedley amendment the Hedley amendment was adopted to limit the growth of local government revenue okay and so what what that did is it under the Hedley amendment millage rates are reduced or rolled back on an annual basis I

  25. different expenses administrative operations assessing services elections public safety infrastructure maintenance planning zoning parks and rec if we had one and then just general you know so you have to take a net loss when you put in a new or a newer home with its greater in value no I'm not talking about a difference between an old house that has gotten torn down on a new house I'm talking about a house that's constructed if the house is a half million dollars that's what we go I see okay so so yeah so the township doesn't take a net loss we just don't realize you don't realize a big game exactly there is no such thing as a big game we're not getting eighteen thousand five hundred dollars not a big beautiful bill correct correct right but I try so all right so what is the Hedley amendment the Hedley amendment was adopted to limit the growth of local government revenue okay and so what what that did is it under the Hedley amendment millage rates are reduced or rolled back on an annual basis I think in all my years of doing this I think there's only been two years that we did not get a rollback and one was I one was in 2023 2023 22 somewhere in that area but that was, you know, when the inflation rate was, I think, 7.9% or something along those lines. So existing property values increases are subject to the rollback calculations. New construction is excluded from the inflation growth calculations. And I'll show you that. I didn't include it in here in the package, but I had Sue added to the slideshow today. So I'm going to show it to you on the overhead screens what I'm talking about when I'm talking about that. So, um, so the results are even when property values are increasing and, and I'm not going to stand up here and tell you they're not because in the township, they're doing very, very well. Um, but again, we're dealing with assessments and, and property growth, property value increase, but that doesn't impact the taxable value. Anybody who hasn't moved into the township, anybody who's had their property for a number of years, their assessment may have gone up 10%, but their taxable value went up three.

  26. Hedley amendment millage rates are reduced or rolled back on an annual basis I think in all my years of doing this I think there's only been two years that we did not get a rollback and one was I one was in 2023 2023 22 somewhere in that area but that was, you know, when the inflation rate was, I think, 7.9% or something along those lines. So existing property values increases are subject to the rollback calculations. New construction is excluded from the inflation growth calculations. And I'll show you that. I didn't include it in here in the package, but I had Sue added to the slideshow today. So I'm going to show it to you on the overhead screens what I'm talking about when I'm talking about that. So, um, so the results are even when property values are increasing and, and I'm not going to stand up here and tell you they're not because in the township, they're doing very, very well. Um, but again, we're dealing with assessments and, and property growth, property value increase, but that doesn't impact the taxable value. Anybody who hasn't moved into the township, anybody who's had their property for a number of years, their assessment may have gone up 10%, but their taxable value went up three. So, um, that's a whole nother can of worms we could get into at some point, but today's not the day for that. So, um, um, this is an example of how, what I'm referring to when I say the millage rates get rolled back. So on an annual basis, the County calculates our, our millage reduction calculation, which is the rollback factor. um, so as an example in 2020.. So, um, as an example, one, two thousandством- 2022 the authorized millage was 1.5 mils it got rolled back by 0.98 the effective millage rate that we could levy the maximum allowable is 1.47 you go to 23 the authorized millage doesn't change but then what you do is you take the the prior year effective millage multiply it by the rollback factor and you see it goes down to 1.4475 and that continues every year year over year over year and i have another slide that i um included in here that'll give you a real good example of the township's millages all of our all the township allocated millages and where they started and

  27. of years, their assessment may have gone up 10%, but their taxable value went up three. So, um, that's a whole nother can of worms we could get into at some point, but today's not the day for that. So, um, um, this is an example of how, what I'm referring to when I say the millage rates get rolled back. So on an annual basis, the County calculates our, our millage reduction calculation, which is the rollback factor. um, so as an example in 2020.. So, um, as an example, one, two thousandством- 2022 the authorized millage was 1.5 mils it got rolled back by 0.98 the effective millage rate that we could levy the maximum allowable is 1.47 you go to 23 the authorized millage doesn't change but then what you do is you take the the prior year effective millage multiply it by the rollback factor and you see it goes down to 1.4475 and that continues every year year over year over year and i have another slide that i um included in here that'll give you a real good example of the township's millages all of our all the township allocated millages and where they started and where they're at today so um that'll that'll be a good slide for uh we can point out some some key points there so uh so here we go here's a good example of a new construction property taxable value a half million dollars the township's operating millage is about 9.9139 not about that's what it was last year so calculations on that the township receives out of that 18,500 we receive 49 5 40 four thousand nine fifty seven an annual township tax revenue the rest goes to all the other taxing authorities um So, you know, municipal costs associated with new development, you know, new development, it creates demands for in all different aspects of municipal services, road maintenance, public safety, administrative support. The bigger the community, the more support staff that's needed. Infrastructure, you know, now we, you know, with water and sewer, you know, they're constantly doing infrastructure repairs, you know, water main breaks.

  28. township's millages all of our all the township allocated millages and where they started and where they're at today so um that'll that'll be a good slide for uh we can point out some some key points there so uh so here we go here's a good example of a new construction property taxable value a half million dollars the township's operating millage is about 9.9139 not about that's what it was last year so calculations on that the township receives out of that 18,500 we receive 49 5 40 four thousand nine fifty seven an annual township tax revenue the rest goes to all the other taxing authorities um So, you know, municipal costs associated with new development, you know, new development, it creates demands for in all different aspects of municipal services, road maintenance, public safety, administrative support. The bigger the community, the more support staff that's needed. Infrastructure, you know, now we, you know, with water and sewer, you know, they're constantly doing infrastructure repairs, you know, water main breaks. They have, you know, I don't know how many of they have every, every, every winter, but they're constantly seem like they're out there during the winter repairing a water main or a storm sewer, or, you know, out there during the summer, cleaning out the, you know, the, the storm sewers to make sure they, they operating properly. So here we don't have a parks and rec service, but if we did, it would go to that building and planning services and then water and sewer infrastructure as well. So, um, all right. So common misconceptions about property taxes, you know, this, I think is a crux of, of why I'm having, why I'm giving this presentation is because there's a misconception out there that all property taxes stay with the township. Not the case. It's not the case at all. And I'll show you in one of the slides I added on, um, you know, just exactly where all the revenue goes. misconception number two is new property constructions create large profits for the township i think we did a pretty good job of showing you that that's not true either and um you know the fact that that the fact that we do have as much new construction as we as we

  29. The bigger the community, the more support staff that's needed. Infrastructure, you know, now we, you know, with water and sewer, you know, they're constantly doing infrastructure repairs, you know, water main breaks. They have, you know, I don't know how many of they have every, every, every winter, but they're constantly seem like they're out there during the winter repairing a water main or a storm sewer, or, you know, out there during the summer, cleaning out the, you know, the, the storm sewers to make sure they, they operating properly. So here we don't have a parks and rec service, but if we did, it would go to that building and planning services and then water and sewer infrastructure as well. So, um, all right. So common misconceptions about property taxes, you know, this, I think is a crux of, of why I'm having, why I'm giving this presentation is because there's a misconception out there that all property taxes stay with the township. Not the case. It's not the case at all. And I'll show you in one of the slides I added on, um, you know, just exactly where all the revenue goes. misconception number two is new property constructions create large profits for the township i think we did a pretty good job of showing you that that's not true either and um you know the fact that that the fact that we do have as much new construction as we as we as we do have in the township um people look at that and say well we should just be able to pay for the roads with all that it's just that's not the way that it works if we could keep every penny that we're billing um that might be a different discussion but unfortunately we're not allowed to do that so and then the last misconception is increased assessments automatically create large budget increases again i think in one of my first slides i said you know tax revenue is based on taxable value times millage rate equals tax dollars the assessments may be going up at you know high single low double digits in some cases but that doesn't impact what tax revenue the township collects so two totally separate values they represent two totally separate things one represents market value one represents tax revenue so yes sir what's the element of truth then in assessments what's that what's the element of truth in assessments i mean it does it seems to me i would just keep all the assessments the same i wouldn't raise them there's no reason

  30. you know the fact that that the fact that we do have as much new construction as we as we as we do have in the township um people look at that and say well we should just be able to pay for the roads with all that it's just that's not the way that it works if we could keep every penny that we're billing um that might be a different discussion but unfortunately we're not allowed to do that so and then the last misconception is increased assessments automatically create large budget increases again i think in one of my first slides i said you know tax revenue is based on taxable value times millage rate equals tax dollars the assessments may be going up at you know high single low double digits in some cases but that doesn't impact what tax revenue the township collects so two totally separate values they represent two totally separate things one represents market value one represents tax revenue so yes sir what's the element of truth then in assessments what's that what's the element of truth in assessments i mean it does it seems to me i would just keep all the assessments the same i wouldn't raise them there's no reason to raise an assessment well i mean we're required to keep them at 50 percent of market value every year so so if you determine the market value hasn't changed which you technically you could just say why why would you have to increase the assessment so every year i'm just making it no every year debating the issue i'm just trying to understand well we're required by statute to keep all of our all of our assessments at 50 percent of market right so if the market's going up we have to increase the assessments and i'll tell you every single year believe it or not i have 20 subdivisions that i either leave the same or drop and some are substantial drops really yep they're neighborhoods worth that haven't that haven't had sales in in six eight ten years so what we've you know what we've kind of done is we've kind of combined those with other ones that have had some you know like properties that have had some some uh you know relatively decent or strong sales and made some adjustments based on that and then we've had two properties in one neighborhood sell for dramatically like 20 percent less than what we had it on at so last year i dropped them 20

  31. to raise an assessment well i mean we're required to keep them at 50 percent of market value every year so so if you determine the market value hasn't changed which you technically you could just say why why would you have to increase the assessment so every year i'm just making it no every year debating the issue i'm just trying to understand well we're required by statute to keep all of our all of our assessments at 50 percent of market right so if the market's going up we have to increase the assessments and i'll tell you every single year believe it or not i have 20 subdivisions that i either leave the same or drop and some are substantial drops really yep they're neighborhoods worth that haven't that haven't had sales in in six eight ten years so what we've you know what we've kind of done is we've kind of combined those with other ones that have had some you know like properties that have had some some uh you know relatively decent or strong sales and made some adjustments based on that and then we've had two properties in one neighborhood sell for dramatically like 20 percent less than what we had it on at so last year i dropped them 20 percent so tell people to move there then they well then the problem with that is once you tell somebody to do that they're going to start paying more and more and more and then your assessments are going to go 20 percent less than you thought they were going to pay then that would be a good deal so I'm all you care. So, okay, moving on to that. This is a little complicated than neurosurgery. So conclusions and takeaways. You know, understanding how property taxes are calculated, distributed, and important when evaluating financial impact of new constructions. So it's important that you guys get an understanding of, yep, we got a lot of new constructions, but guess what? That doesn't mean the township is just breaking in the cash because that's not what's happening at all. You can ask our finance director about that one. So key takeaways, new construction does not generate, I shouldn't say does not generate, new construction does not generate as much tax revenue as people think it does. It certainly does. There's no doubt. But it's not $18,500. It's more in line with $5,000. So Headley rollback factors reduce effective operating millage rates over time, which is why

  32. for dramatically like 20 percent less than what we had it on at so last year i dropped them 20 percent so tell people to move there then they well then the problem with that is once you tell somebody to do that they're going to start paying more and more and more and then your assessments are going to go 20 percent less than you thought they were going to pay then that would be a good deal so I'm all you care. So, okay, moving on to that. This is a little complicated than neurosurgery. So conclusions and takeaways. You know, understanding how property taxes are calculated, distributed, and important when evaluating financial impact of new constructions. So it's important that you guys get an understanding of, yep, we got a lot of new constructions, but guess what? That doesn't mean the township is just breaking in the cash because that's not what's happening at all. You can ask our finance director about that one. So key takeaways, new construction does not generate, I shouldn't say does not generate, new construction does not generate as much tax revenue as people think it does. It certainly does. There's no doubt. But it's not $18,500. It's more in line with $5,000. So Headley rollback factors reduce effective operating millage rates over time, which is why you'll see if you pay attention to the elections, every so often you'll see a city or a township going out for a Headley override, mainly cities going out for Headley overrides. That way they can get their millage rate back up to what they're maximally allowed to levy. Only a small percentage of total property taxes would remain with the township. So we can easily go along with theship. But at the plate with a certain rectangle, there'lling us take one of the things down this little bit. So that's going to be a Tiere, does all that sound like there should be buttons. But here's a unit to make sure that you might have any other factors. You might be the candidate that doesn't work, in terms of the type of activity will fix the Property taxes are distributed amongst multiple taxing jurisdictions, and growth can also increase operational and infrastructural costs. So we've talked about that. Is there any way to make this a little bigger? You can look over here. This one. That's rude, but we'll do it. Okay. Uh-oh, I can't see. Oh, there we go. There's my pointer. Okay. So just using the township allocated and voted general operating millages.

  33. So Headley rollback factors reduce effective operating millage rates over time, which is why you'll see if you pay attention to the elections, every so often you'll see a city or a township going out for a Headley override, mainly cities going out for Headley overrides. That way they can get their millage rate back up to what they're maximally allowed to levy. Only a small percentage of total property taxes would remain with the township. So we can easily go along with theship. But at the plate with a certain rectangle, there'lling us take one of the things down this little bit. So that's going to be a Tiere, does all that sound like there should be buttons. But here's a unit to make sure that you might have any other factors. You might be the candidate that doesn't work, in terms of the type of activity will fix the Property taxes are distributed amongst multiple taxing jurisdictions, and growth can also increase operational and infrastructural costs. So we've talked about that. Is there any way to make this a little bigger? You can look over here. This one. That's rude, but we'll do it. Okay. Uh-oh, I can't see. Oh, there we go. There's my pointer. Okay. So just using the township allocated and voted general operating millages. So you can see this is the rollback portion of the presentation that I was referring to. This first one was originally authorized for 1.410 mills. It was rolled back in 24 to .9235. The 25 millage reduction fraction was .9957. So the 25 permanently reduced millage rate is .9195. So the maximum millage rate we can levy for 2025 is .9195. So this is a way that we're going to grow up. So the 25 millage rate is .91955. So that is a way that is just going to be a little bit more for us to do thearray, so it started out at 1.4 it's down to 0.9195 same thing happens like this one was voted on in 2020 it was authorized at 1.2401 mils and it's been this is a pretty new one so it hasn't gone down very much but it went down to one 1.2018 mils but you can go down the list and and take a look and see you know a good one is the public safety or the road village that was authorized in 2016

  34. So you can see this is the rollback portion of the presentation that I was referring to. This first one was originally authorized for 1.410 mills. It was rolled back in 24 to .9235. The 25 millage reduction fraction was .9957. So the 25 permanently reduced millage rate is .9195. So the maximum millage rate we can levy for 2025 is .9195. So this is a way that we're going to grow up. So the 25 millage rate is .91955. So that is a way that is just going to be a little bit more for us to do thearray, so it started out at 1.4 it's down to 0.9195 same thing happens like this one was voted on in 2020 it was authorized at 1.2401 mils and it's been this is a pretty new one so it hasn't gone down very much but it went down to one 1.2018 mils but you can go down the list and and take a look and see you know a good one is the public safety or the road village that was authorized in 2016 authorized at 0.7155 and now here we are 26 and it's 0.6625 it's it's a pretty substantial reduction in in in millage rate and then obviously corresponding tax collection well none of them went north these are all less no and they won't that's that's the rollback that's what i'm talking about every one of the millage it's the mother of all rollbacks it's a headley amendment for you um i'm trying to find our oldest one it might be this one this one here my eyes are working right we started out at 1.9935 it's a public safety millage and we're down to one point five six eight six is that right eight five yeah it you not that one point oh yeah one point eight five six eight so i mean they don't necessarily appear to be large millage reductions but i tell you what every every little bit of reduction impacts the budget exponentially it just it really it really really does and folks folks just sometimes they

  35. see you know a good one is the public safety or the road village that was authorized in 2016 authorized at 0.7155 and now here we are 26 and it's 0.6625 it's it's a pretty substantial reduction in in in millage rate and then obviously corresponding tax collection well none of them went north these are all less no and they won't that's that's the rollback that's what i'm talking about every one of the millage it's the mother of all rollbacks it's a headley amendment for you um i'm trying to find our oldest one it might be this one this one here my eyes are working right we started out at 1.9935 it's a public safety millage and we're down to one point five six eight six is that right eight five yeah it you not that one point oh yeah one point eight five six eight so i mean they don't necessarily appear to be large millage reductions but i tell you what every every little bit of reduction impacts the budget exponentially it just it really it really really does and folks folks just sometimes they they don't understand that it's not that they don't understand necessarily they just don't know right they don't they just assume that we just up the millage rate is what it is they don't know what goes into these village rates and actually mike had me look at birmingham's the other day um this their city operating millage which probably was at 20 mills one at one point in time because that's the maximum for a city was a little over 10 mills was it not mike i think so it it it's i mean it's been cut just about in half so i'm honestly surprised uh and maybe they have i just didn't know i'm honestly surprised birmingham hasn't gone out for a headley override um just because it's it it's about 50 percent just about 50 percent of what they were what you're originally authorized to levy versus where they're at now so oh go ahead yeah no gadget oh i think i just have one the last the last slide was going to be a um just a little breakdown of

  36. budget exponentially it just it really it really really does and folks folks just sometimes they they don't understand that it's not that they don't understand necessarily they just don't know right they don't they just assume that we just up the millage rate is what it is they don't know what goes into these village rates and actually mike had me look at birmingham's the other day um this their city operating millage which probably was at 20 mills one at one point in time because that's the maximum for a city was a little over 10 mills was it not mike i think so it it it's i mean it's been cut just about in half so i'm honestly surprised uh and maybe they have i just didn't know i'm honestly surprised birmingham hasn't gone out for a headley override um just because it's it it's about 50 percent just about 50 percent of what they were what you're originally authorized to levy versus where they're at now so oh go ahead yeah no gadget oh i think i just have one the last the last slide was going to be a um just a little breakdown of where all the millage rates, where all the millage rates go. So, you know, school, county, you know, townships, so on and so forth. So, and then this is my. It bounced back. Uh-oh. Oh. I don't know. How come they're not showing up? Is it freezing up for you? It's the Russians. Yeah, but while he figures that out, so you have a summer tax bill and we have a winter tax bill, right? So the summer tax bill we collect, the township keeps none of that money. It all goes back to the schools, the county, everything else. The winter tax bill is split up, and that's when the township gets paid. So we budget for the year knowing what our, when we're collecting our money, which is just the February tax bill. The thing, the thing of this, the most important thing that's come out of this is that, what people don't understand, and that's part of what we have to get across, is that, yes, that new house is an $18,500 tax bill.

  37. where all the millage rates, where all the millage rates go. So, you know, school, county, you know, townships, so on and so forth. So, and then this is my. It bounced back. Uh-oh. Oh. I don't know. How come they're not showing up? Is it freezing up for you? It's the Russians. Yeah, but while he figures that out, so you have a summer tax bill and we have a winter tax bill, right? So the summer tax bill we collect, the township keeps none of that money. It all goes back to the schools, the county, everything else. The winter tax bill is split up, and that's when the township gets paid. So we budget for the year knowing what our, when we're collecting our money, which is just the February tax bill. The thing, the thing of this, the most important thing that's come out of this is that, what people don't understand, and that's part of what we have to get across, is that, yes, that new house is an $18,500 tax bill. The house that came down was a $4,000 tax bill. The difference, the thing of it is, yeah, the new house, he's going to pay $18,500, but because of that, everybody else is taxed. taxes don't millage doesn't go up it goes up a fraction because the millage is rolled back that's what people don't get what they think is well he's not paying 18.5 it was four before that look at that 14 000 difference where is it going and not only that that is a projection to the following year the next year and and so the next year that millage comes the middle millage on my house it's been a long time you are his that comes down and so yes my assessment might go up but you know it only go up the whole thing is like three percent yes this is I talked to you about this the Detroit News article on Bloomfield the values it went up six percent from 25 to 26 374 million increase six percent went up well that means that now the millage has to come down so we can only get three percent right people don't get that that's what we have to kind of that's why we're in this bind and that's what we have to stress to let people know in simple terms that's what happens

  38. The thing, the thing of this, the most important thing that's come out of this is that, what people don't understand, and that's part of what we have to get across, is that, yes, that new house is an $18,500 tax bill. The house that came down was a $4,000 tax bill. The difference, the thing of it is, yeah, the new house, he's going to pay $18,500, but because of that, everybody else is taxed. taxes don't millage doesn't go up it goes up a fraction because the millage is rolled back that's what people don't get what they think is well he's not paying 18.5 it was four before that look at that 14 000 difference where is it going and not only that that is a projection to the following year the next year and and so the next year that millage comes the middle millage on my house it's been a long time you are his that comes down and so yes my assessment might go up but you know it only go up the whole thing is like three percent yes this is I talked to you about this the Detroit News article on Bloomfield the values it went up six percent from 25 to 26 374 million increase six percent went up well that means that now the millage has to come down so we can only get three percent right people don't get that that's what we have to kind of that's why we're in this bind and that's what we have to stress to let people know in simple terms that's what happens so that this this this is one of the add-on slides that that I gave sue today because when I was reviewing my presentation I thought you know maybe it's a good idea to have to have the advisory committee take a look at this because we calculate these out here in the township because we have to estimate for budget purposes based on our fiscal year but the county equalization departments actually the one that calculates those out they calculate them out in April which is way which is you know when our fiscal year starts so Jason and I have to calculate one of these out I think we do it in March well we actually do it when he's trying to come up with this preliminary budget but if you look on there section one 20 for 25 taxable value so last year's taxable value minus losses times the inflation rate the spot of portion of that is 2025 taxable value based on SEV minus additions so basically what they're trying to do is get us back to what they refer to as a base tax rate so they're taking out the

  39. in this bind and that's what we have to stress to let people know in simple terms that's what happens so that this this this is one of the add-on slides that that I gave sue today because when I was reviewing my presentation I thought you know maybe it's a good idea to have to have the advisory committee take a look at this because we calculate these out here in the township because we have to estimate for budget purposes based on our fiscal year but the county equalization departments actually the one that calculates those out they calculate them out in April which is way which is you know when our fiscal year starts so Jason and I have to calculate one of these out I think we do it in March well we actually do it when he's trying to come up with this preliminary budget but if you look on there section one 20 for 25 taxable value so last year's taxable value minus losses times the inflation rate the spot of portion of that is 2025 taxable value based on SEV minus additions so basically what they're trying to do is get us back to what they refer to as a base tax rate so they're taking out the new or the additions they're taking out the losses they're taking last year's taxable times the CPI and then you just divide the two amongst each other and that gives you your rollback but what that does is that gets you back to a basically a base tax rate right so it's it's it's calculating out how I like to refer it's calculating out how to keep your taxable value down in other words not at eight percent not at seven percent but at right about three percent so or you know whatever the the CPI is for that particular year and that you know that this is part of the Headley Amendment which is, again, to limit, you know, revenue growth from the township. And not just the township, but all tax collecting authorities, schools, everybody else. Schools have to calculate their own out. So their millage rates are getting rolled back, and so are the municipalities. And then the last slide is the where does your tax, you know, your tax dollars go. The dark blue is us. Every other color is somebody other than us.

  40. get us back to what they refer to as a base tax rate so they're taking out the new or the additions they're taking out the losses they're taking last year's taxable times the CPI and then you just divide the two amongst each other and that gives you your rollback but what that does is that gets you back to a basically a base tax rate right so it's it's it's calculating out how I like to refer it's calculating out how to keep your taxable value down in other words not at eight percent not at seven percent but at right about three percent so or you know whatever the the CPI is for that particular year and that you know that this is part of the Headley Amendment which is, again, to limit, you know, revenue growth from the township. And not just the township, but all tax collecting authorities, schools, everybody else. Schools have to calculate their own out. So their millage rates are getting rolled back, and so are the municipalities. And then the last slide is the where does your tax, you know, your tax dollars go. The dark blue is us. Every other color is somebody other than us. So if you look at that, it's three-quarters goes someplace other than the township. And then I actually had, I think I mentioned last time I was here that Jason refers to Michigan as having one of the most restrictive property tax or municipal tax revenue structures in the entire country. And there were three areas that he highlighted. I couldn't only recall two of them, so I talked to him today about it. But one of them is rate limit. So the 10-mil cap for townships and the 20-mil for cities. The assessment limit, you know, that limits how much property taxpayers' taxable values can increase. And then, you know, the limit on how much tax revenue jurisdictions can take in one year over the next. So, um... you know there's there's there's three restrictions on on municipal revenues that are very uh impactful in in municipal finance and and how how much revenue we can take in on an annual basis and

  41. Every other color is somebody other than us. So if you look at that, it's three-quarters goes someplace other than the township. And then I actually had, I think I mentioned last time I was here that Jason refers to Michigan as having one of the most restrictive property tax or municipal tax revenue structures in the entire country. And there were three areas that he highlighted. I couldn't only recall two of them, so I talked to him today about it. But one of them is rate limit. So the 10-mil cap for townships and the 20-mil for cities. The assessment limit, you know, that limits how much property taxpayers' taxable values can increase. And then, you know, the limit on how much tax revenue jurisdictions can take in one year over the next. So, um... you know there's there's there's three restrictions on on municipal revenues that are very uh impactful in in municipal finance and and how how much revenue we can take in on an annual basis and you know i guess on a on a different note this all may be moved should some of the house bill the bills that are out there now should they pass one of which is the uncapping that that's potentially a thing of the past six mil state education tax might go away you know the real estate property transfer taxes on the hook too so you know there's three again three revenue sources that are potentially on the way out so the only thing holding them back is figuring out what the legislators are going to figure out as far as the luxury services tax is going to be and how that's going to be administered so if they if they figure that one out the other ones are gone so they've already been though three of the three of the five have already been been approved the only one that's outstanding is the luxury services tax and the new governor whoever that is has to sign that right well my guess is mike would know better than me but my guess is going to be it's going to be done before um the current governor gets out oh really i would think there you go that'll be your um yeah okay we'll hold you to it legacy legacy you

  42. you know i guess on a on a different note this all may be moved should some of the house bill the bills that are out there now should they pass one of which is the uncapping that that's potentially a thing of the past six mil state education tax might go away you know the real estate property transfer taxes on the hook too so you know there's three again three revenue sources that are potentially on the way out so the only thing holding them back is figuring out what the legislators are going to figure out as far as the luxury services tax is going to be and how that's going to be administered so if they if they figure that one out the other ones are gone so they've already been though three of the three of the five have already been been approved the only one that's outstanding is the luxury services tax and the new governor whoever that is has to sign that right well my guess is mike would know better than me but my guess is going to be it's going to be done before um the current governor gets out oh really i would think there you go that'll be your um yeah okay we'll hold you to it legacy legacy you That'll be her last move. That'll be her legacy. That'll be her legacy. Darren, very good presentation. Yeah. I assume it's in our file, right? This PowerPoint presentation. We can... Yeah, I emailed you. Okay. One question. I added the two slides on. I could have Sue email those out too. That'll be appreciated. One question. So, if there's a community which is stagnating, there is no homes that are sold or nobody's moving out, that has a negative impact, right? Well, it depends. I mean, you know, part of the problem is that there's a lot of factors, new constructions, losses, you know, fire losses or demos, you know. The rural communities, they still roll their millage rates back. And it's even more impactful on them because, you know, their rural farming communities, their tax base isn't huge. But they still have to roll their millages back as well. And again, it's really... It was really... I don't want to get on a soapbox, but Headley, Proposal A, our entire property tax structure

  43. That'll be her last move. That'll be her legacy. That'll be her legacy. Darren, very good presentation. Yeah. I assume it's in our file, right? This PowerPoint presentation. We can... Yeah, I emailed you. Okay. One question. I added the two slides on. I could have Sue email those out too. That'll be appreciated. One question. So, if there's a community which is stagnating, there is no homes that are sold or nobody's moving out, that has a negative impact, right? Well, it depends. I mean, you know, part of the problem is that there's a lot of factors, new constructions, losses, you know, fire losses or demos, you know. The rural communities, they still roll their millage rates back. And it's even more impactful on them because, you know, their rural farming communities, their tax base isn't huge. But they still have to roll their millages back as well. And again, it's really... It was really... I don't want to get on a soapbox, but Headley, Proposal A, our entire property tax structure needs to be revamped from start to finish. There's so many... There are so many things... Well, it's too complicated. Well, it is. And it's very complicated. And you can't... Empirically... If you have $15,000 more collected for one piece of property, where in the heck does it go? And you just spent 20 minutes and you're educated to the highest degree in this stuff. And it's very complicated to say, I'm rationalizing it. Well, does the school get more money? Does the safety get more money? Does the library get more money? Does Recreedy get more money? Who gets the more money? So I'll tell you, this is one of the more complex areas of property tax assessments. And I think I might have told Sue today, I said, I haven't talked about Headley and rollbacks and where tax dollars go so much in my entire career as I have in the last probably six months. It's not easy for folks to understand. And it's, you know, I always tell my staff, I say, listen, guys, you know, when you're talking to somebody, you have to try and break it down as basic as you can because they don't do what we do for a living.

  44. I don't want to get on a soapbox, but Headley, Proposal A, our entire property tax structure needs to be revamped from start to finish. There's so many... There are so many things... Well, it's too complicated. Well, it is. And it's very complicated. And you can't... Empirically... If you have $15,000 more collected for one piece of property, where in the heck does it go? And you just spent 20 minutes and you're educated to the highest degree in this stuff. And it's very complicated to say, I'm rationalizing it. Well, does the school get more money? Does the safety get more money? Does the library get more money? Does Recreedy get more money? Who gets the more money? So I'll tell you, this is one of the more complex areas of property tax assessments. And I think I might have told Sue today, I said, I haven't talked about Headley and rollbacks and where tax dollars go so much in my entire career as I have in the last probably six months. It's not easy for folks to understand. And it's, you know, I always tell my staff, I say, listen, guys, you know, when you're talking to somebody, you have to try and break it down as basic as you can because they don't do what we do for a living. They don't understand what we do. If they have any interaction with us, it's once or twice in their entire home ownership and they're on their way. But I don't know what Jeff did for a living. And even if I did, I don't know that I would understand completely what he does or any of you guys up there. You know what I mean? So it's a difficult topic to discuss with folks, which is why Mike asked me to do. the presentation and put some stuff on paper so that if you have questions and so forth, you can certainly answer. You certainly can reach out to me and ask the question. But to Jeff's point, I think he had said something, you know, yes, the old home may have been paying $4,000 a year in property taxes, you know, of that 2800 went to the township or, you know, whatever the number is. But now that you have a new half million dollar house, half million dollar taxable value, they're paying 18.5. But the difference is between 2800, let's say, and 5000. So that's kind of the difference in tax revenue that the township would realize, and every community, every entity would realize approximately that same increase

  45. you have to try and break it down as basic as you can because they don't do what we do for a living. They don't understand what we do. If they have any interaction with us, it's once or twice in their entire home ownership and they're on their way. But I don't know what Jeff did for a living. And even if I did, I don't know that I would understand completely what he does or any of you guys up there. You know what I mean? So it's a difficult topic to discuss with folks, which is why Mike asked me to do. the presentation and put some stuff on paper so that if you have questions and so forth, you can certainly answer. You certainly can reach out to me and ask the question. But to Jeff's point, I think he had said something, you know, yes, the old home may have been paying $4,000 a year in property taxes, you know, of that 2800 went to the township or, you know, whatever the number is. But now that you have a new half million dollar house, half million dollar taxable value, they're paying 18.5. But the difference is between 2800, let's say, and 5000. So that's kind of the difference in tax revenue that the township would realize, and every community, every entity would realize approximately that same increase in revenue. So, yep, you went from $4,000 a year to 18.5 as a grand total. But when you break it down entity by entity by entity, you just put an exclamation point on the point I was making. You said, where does all that money go? There is no money. It's not, it's not, there's no money there. Well, there's no there there. But that's the frustrating part. Well, that's what you have to get people to understand. There's no there there. It looks like there would be because of the increase, but then because of the millage rollback, there's no there there. Well, you take from one hand and you take it. No, you're not taking anything. No, well, you don't have anything in one hand and you're not. changing the other hand. Well, there's no extra money there. Exactly. It's not a flush. It's not a, where's it going? It's just not there at all. And the bottom line is, we don't get any more money to fix the ropes. It's crypto. Big picture question. You go through all this. That's why we're all this. Not you. That was, by the way, that was a great, I know it takes time to put all this in. That was a great presentation. Let Jeff finish his comments. Jeff. Just a big picture question. You go through all this, roll back the increases, the decreases. What is a net year over year increase

  46. would realize, and every community, every entity would realize approximately that same increase in revenue. So, yep, you went from $4,000 a year to 18.5 as a grand total. But when you break it down entity by entity by entity, you just put an exclamation point on the point I was making. You said, where does all that money go? There is no money. It's not, it's not, there's no money there. Well, there's no there there. But that's the frustrating part. Well, that's what you have to get people to understand. There's no there there. It looks like there would be because of the increase, but then because of the millage rollback, there's no there there. Well, you take from one hand and you take it. No, you're not taking anything. No, well, you don't have anything in one hand and you're not. changing the other hand. Well, there's no extra money there. Exactly. It's not a flush. It's not a, where's it going? It's just not there at all. And the bottom line is, we don't get any more money to fix the ropes. It's crypto. Big picture question. You go through all this. That's why we're all this. Not you. That was, by the way, that was a great, I know it takes time to put all this in. That was a great presentation. Let Jeff finish his comments. Jeff. Just a big picture question. You go through all this, roll back the increases, the decreases. What is a net year over year increase in taxable revenue? Is it 2%, 3%? So, I wish I'd have known that ahead of time to look that quick. I can give you an answer for that one offline. But as an example, we had $122 million in new construction, round it up. Last year, we had about $375 million in taxable value increase because of the CPI. So, that's pretty, that last year was, last year we had $122 million in new. That's probably the highest since I've been the assessor here. And by about $30 million, $35 million. I would say on a typical year, we get about $70 to $80 million in new construction and then about $250 to $275 million in we're just going to see a lot of a taxable price, any loss. Yeah. And, and, and, uh, I mean, I mean, we've got about five, but we're going to Wal-DULL, taxable value increase based on the CPI. But I can certainly give you guys the exact number. Then you take that and then you do all the rollbacks. So from the budget for the township, how much does it go up each year? On an average, I think we, on an average, Jason and I try to

  47. through all this, roll back the increases, the decreases. What is a net year over year increase in taxable revenue? Is it 2%, 3%? So, I wish I'd have known that ahead of time to look that quick. I can give you an answer for that one offline. But as an example, we had $122 million in new construction, round it up. Last year, we had about $375 million in taxable value increase because of the CPI. So, that's pretty, that last year was, last year we had $122 million in new. That's probably the highest since I've been the assessor here. And by about $30 million, $35 million. I would say on a typical year, we get about $70 to $80 million in new construction and then about $250 to $275 million in we're just going to see a lot of a taxable price, any loss. Yeah. And, and, and, uh, I mean, I mean, we've got about five, but we're going to Wal-DULL, taxable value increase based on the CPI. But I can certainly give you guys the exact number. Then you take that and then you do all the rollbacks. So from the budget for the township, how much does it go up each year? On an average, I think we, on an average, Jason and I try to figure out when we're estimating our revenue increase from one year to the next. Again, this isn't just property taxes. So what we try to do is we try to estimate conservatively. We've been forecasting out about three and a half percent over the next two to three years. And I think the last two to three years, 2005, no, no, 2004, I think we got four percent. But again, that's not just strictly property taxes. It goes up three percent, three and a half percent a year. And then you've got all the intended costs to go up each year too. And that's the thing. The CPI only goes up three, three and a half. But the township expenses, we talked about there earlier, just fuel alone. Just fuel alone is through. And the pension thing never goes away. So it's not consumer price is three percent. That's the biggest. It's all the others. I mean, I was talking to our IT director today and we were talking about a software program and he's telling me, you know, that I should expect about a 10 percent increase. And I'm like, what are you talking about?

  48. how much does it go up each year? On an average, I think we, on an average, Jason and I try to figure out when we're estimating our revenue increase from one year to the next. Again, this isn't just property taxes. So what we try to do is we try to estimate conservatively. We've been forecasting out about three and a half percent over the next two to three years. And I think the last two to three years, 2005, no, no, 2004, I think we got four percent. But again, that's not just strictly property taxes. It goes up three percent, three and a half percent a year. And then you've got all the intended costs to go up each year too. And that's the thing. The CPI only goes up three, three and a half. But the township expenses, we talked about there earlier, just fuel alone. Just fuel alone is through. And the pension thing never goes away. So it's not consumer price is three percent. That's the biggest. It's all the others. I mean, I was talking to our IT director today and we were talking about a software program and he's telling me, you know, that I should expect about a 10 percent increase. And I'm like, what are you talking about? 10%. Three or four, he's like, not in this business. And he's like, if you're lucky, it's going to be 10%. It's probably going to be more like 15% to 20%. Can we charge to use software? Yeah, yeah. Support and different things like that. Oh, they're Americans, that's why. OK, that's right. Oh, 10%? Thank you. So that's a great point. I mean, even if we got 3.5%, our costs went up 5%. Some of the software, it's heavy cyber security that we're really having to buy into. It's getting very expensive. OK, thank you, that was really good. If any of you guys have any questions, obviously reach out to me. I'm going to bring my assessment to you and see if I can go through it. I couldn't understand. Yeah, thanks. You know what, if we got new roads, it wouldn't matter. I'd be happy. How's that for an assessment probe? Thanks a lot. Thank you so much. Thanks. All right. The next thing we have to look at, now we have to go look at the PowerPoint and the report that we want to give to the township, present to the township. First of all, let me just ask, what date, I don't remember now, what date did we decide we're going to do that? Actually go and present.

  49. 10%. Three or four, he's like, not in this business. And he's like, if you're lucky, it's going to be 10%. It's probably going to be more like 15% to 20%. Can we charge to use software? Yeah, yeah. Support and different things like that. Oh, they're Americans, that's why. OK, that's right. Oh, 10%? Thank you. So that's a great point. I mean, even if we got 3.5%, our costs went up 5%. Some of the software, it's heavy cyber security that we're really having to buy into. It's getting very expensive. OK, thank you, that was really good. If any of you guys have any questions, obviously reach out to me. I'm going to bring my assessment to you and see if I can go through it. I couldn't understand. Yeah, thanks. You know what, if we got new roads, it wouldn't matter. I'd be happy. How's that for an assessment probe? Thanks a lot. Thank you so much. Thanks. All right. The next thing we have to look at, now we have to go look at the PowerPoint and the report that we want to give to the township, present to the township. First of all, let me just ask, what date, I don't remember now, what date did we decide we're going to do that? Actually go and present. We did. Did we decide that yet? No. I thought we had, and that's why I didn't have it in my notes. Well, we talked earlier about trying to get something by May, but then it didn't happen, but we're learning something. Every time we seem to make headway, there's a turn where we're. go down and we're learning something new go to sec and come back yeah so do you want to establish that date or not now i think we should uh figure out what it takes to get our report done and then then do that because then go from there go from there yeah all right so has everybody read that we got the this report okay do you want to go through go through now here line by line and what do you what do you want to do how do you want to how do you want to do this well is this what we want to give them this is what we're going to give this is the present this is what we submit you want to submit to the the township board prior to the presentation and then we're going to give a presentation based upon this yeah a summary yeah my answer is this is not what we give them this is a rough draft i think well that's true you know no i understand yeah but what i think we have to decide is we can go through this tonight and say are these the right recommendations you know because you know this is what we want to recommend by those categories if it's the right recommendation then what i think we need to do is decide what

  50. We did. Did we decide that yet? No. I thought we had, and that's why I didn't have it in my notes. Well, we talked earlier about trying to get something by May, but then it didn't happen, but we're learning something. Every time we seem to make headway, there's a turn where we're. go down and we're learning something new go to sec and come back yeah so do you want to establish that date or not now i think we should uh figure out what it takes to get our report done and then then do that because then go from there go from there yeah all right so has everybody read that we got the this report okay do you want to go through go through now here line by line and what do you what do you want to do how do you want to how do you want to do this well is this what we want to give them this is what we're going to give this is the present this is what we submit you want to submit to the the township board prior to the presentation and then we're going to give a presentation based upon this yeah a summary yeah my answer is this is not what we give them this is a rough draft i think well that's true you know no i understand yeah but what i think we have to decide is we can go through this tonight and say are these the right recommendations you know because you know this is what we want to recommend by those categories if it's the right recommendation then what i think we need to do is decide what format does the report take i mean it can be a powerpoint it can be findings and recommendations it can be just recommendations and then once we kind of say okay this is the raw recommendations how do we want to organize it then i would i would suggest that a subcommittee of a couple of people of this board get together and then draft that report that we're going to send to the uh the township supervisors and try to do that at the by our next meeting but first of all I have to decide is are these the right recommendations and then how elaborate or complete do we want to make it I mean I'm evolving to maybe we just list the recommendations and not get into all those findings and all this other stuff well that being said that what I propose that we go through this document and parse out what is we don't want to say and then go to the next thing and then make a list and move forward because then we can kind of put a finality to this yeah all right so forgetting about the presentation itself for how we're going to format that we just want to look at this document look at

  51. by those categories if it's the right recommendation then what i think we need to do is decide what format does the report take i mean it can be a powerpoint it can be findings and recommendations it can be just recommendations and then once we kind of say okay this is the raw recommendations how do we want to organize it then i would i would suggest that a subcommittee of a couple of people of this board get together and then draft that report that we're going to send to the uh the township supervisors and try to do that at the by our next meeting but first of all I have to decide is are these the right recommendations and then how elaborate or complete do we want to make it I mean I'm evolving to maybe we just list the recommendations and not get into all those findings and all this other stuff well that being said that what I propose that we go through this document and parse out what is we don't want to say and then go to the next thing and then make a list and move forward because then we can kind of put a finality to this yeah all right so forgetting about the presentation itself for how we're going to format that we just want to look at this document look at the recommendations okay so let's start let's then let's start with with number one the funding strategies increase fun I'm sorry can I get in the in the pretext I just want to make sure we are clear that we are talking about local roadways you know because we are we are talking about deteriorating roadways because everybody thinks of roads including Road Commission is the main roads and reason for correct me if I'm wrong reason for a committee look at the end local roads look at the mission statement that specifically says that that's about subdivision local roads but the mission statement I just want to just insert local in front of the roadways because to me because it's you know talking to a couple of Township board members talking to the planning Commission director the engineering they are all thinking roads are the main road they don't think of low subdivision road as anything that critical you know in my I mean what

  52. for how we're going to format that we just want to look at this document look at the recommendations okay so let's start let's then let's start with with number one the funding strategies increase fun I'm sorry can I get in the in the pretext I just want to make sure we are clear that we are talking about local roadways you know because we are we are talking about deteriorating roadways because everybody thinks of roads including Road Commission is the main roads and reason for correct me if I'm wrong reason for a committee look at the end local roads look at the mission statement that specifically says that that's about subdivision local roads but the mission statement I just want to just insert local in front of the roadways because to me because it's you know talking to a couple of Township board members talking to the planning Commission director the engineering they are all thinking roads are the main road they don't think of low subdivision road as anything that critical you know in my I mean what input I got from talking to people so I think we right up front we should make sure this is this is this is we are addressing the local roads which are not addressed by RCOC or other other ways that that's the focus of our committee right well again I'm going to just say that that's what this committee was was the mission statement is that is that's what it's this this committee was formed to do not talk about that we just assume that we are here simply to talk about local the local roads subdivision roads local local all right that's we have to assume that's what our focus is that's what I would think and I think that this little preamble is like just a rough draft just to introduce us to what we're doing I think we need to look at the recommendation specifically when we get to the to doing a presentation to the to the township board then we can we can craft this introduction the way you see and keep putting in things and make sure we put that in there. But I think right now, I just eliminate, just forget that's not, pretend that's not here. Oh, then it's in the subject heading of this document. So I think what Jay is saying, just stick the word local, local in front of roadway funding

  53. low subdivision road as anything that critical you know in my I mean what input I got from talking to people so I think we right up front we should make sure this is this is this is we are addressing the local roads which are not addressed by RCOC or other other ways that that's the focus of our committee right well again I'm going to just say that that's what this committee was was the mission statement is that is that's what it's this this committee was formed to do not talk about that we just assume that we are here simply to talk about local the local roads subdivision roads local local all right that's we have to assume that's what our focus is that's what I would think and I think that this little preamble is like just a rough draft just to introduce us to what we're doing I think we need to look at the recommendation specifically when we get to the to doing a presentation to the to the township board then we can we can craft this introduction the way you see and keep putting in things and make sure we put that in there. But I think right now, I just eliminate, just forget that's not, pretend that's not here. Oh, then it's in the subject heading of this document. So I think what Jay is saying, just stick the word local, local in front of roadway funding so that it's clear. Okay. We better be clear, because most people. Is that what you're saying, Jay? We just want to make sure that we're not, just add that to the, to the title. Residential streets or local roads, that's what we are talking about, not other, because every time you come back to road commission, we are taking care of your roads, we are taking care of Long Lake roads, but we are not taking care of any of the sub because we don't have money. Telegraph's pretty good. Well, that's, and that. And then there is a word infrastructure here, you know, in addition to the maintenance and infrastructure improvement. So, so it is like. Soar. The storm sewers and things like that, or what is that? We don't do storm sewers. In some instances, we do maintain a couple of them, but for the most part, it's, it's the road, it's the roadway. But when you say infrastructure, we have to work with our, our road commission of Oakland County, if we're going to do work to make sure these things are addressed at the same time. Okay. Okay. So, I think the first three look.

  54. So I think what Jay is saying, just stick the word local, local in front of roadway funding so that it's clear. Okay. We better be clear, because most people. Is that what you're saying, Jay? We just want to make sure that we're not, just add that to the, to the title. Residential streets or local roads, that's what we are talking about, not other, because every time you come back to road commission, we are taking care of your roads, we are taking care of Long Lake roads, but we are not taking care of any of the sub because we don't have money. Telegraph's pretty good. Well, that's, and that. And then there is a word infrastructure here, you know, in addition to the maintenance and infrastructure improvement. So, so it is like. Soar. The storm sewers and things like that, or what is that? We don't do storm sewers. In some instances, we do maintain a couple of them, but for the most part, it's, it's the road, it's the roadway. But when you say infrastructure, we have to work with our, our road commission of Oakland County, if we're going to do work to make sure these things are addressed at the same time. Okay. Okay. So, I think the first three look. it I think they're spot-on they they hit the just recommendations only and so I think they're well done so I think respectful I think we're done with right number one yeah like where we're taking a slow approach yet or the townships contributing yes account Road Commission's contributing this is the neighbors are contributing and you know it consideration of redirecting safety path some safety path now but it has to be voted on by the people I understand no but I mean that's right well you could still consider it with this right my sources but okay number two also is we recommend right so I think it's appropriate just remember that Road Commission is a separate entity of Oakland County correct yeah it's not part of it okay all right so you happy with number two yeah okay go to number three number three

  55. it I think they're spot-on they they hit the just recommendations only and so I think they're well done so I think respectful I think we're done with right number one yeah like where we're taking a slow approach yet or the townships contributing yes account Road Commission's contributing this is the neighbors are contributing and you know it consideration of redirecting safety path some safety path now but it has to be voted on by the people I understand no but I mean that's right well you could still consider it with this right my sources but okay number two also is we recommend right so I think it's appropriate just remember that Road Commission is a separate entity of Oakland County correct yeah it's not part of it okay all right so you happy with number two yeah okay go to number three number three there's a couple instances maybe or just one for the word pacer it's supposed to be an s not a c it's for surface Pavement, surface, evaluation, and reporting, so PASER. And what we could do on three is kind of incorporate that into one, because we set up the study by categories, but that really is kind of, so like one could be the township generically, and then we put everything under the township, so that's something the drafters could deal with, but rather than having it broken out, we need to think generically by major categories to say township and as it applies, would be my suggestion. I'm not sure what, maybe I'm missing it, what the recommendations are for number three. It looks like there's a factual discussion, it's a statement, but I don't, respectfully, I don't, maybe I'm missing it, I don't see a recommendation. Got it. That's a review of where we currently are. But we may not.

  56. all right so you happy with number two yeah okay go to number three number three there's a couple instances maybe or just one for the word pacer it's supposed to be an s not a c it's for surface Pavement, surface, evaluation, and reporting, so PASER. And what we could do on three is kind of incorporate that into one, because we set up the study by categories, but that really is kind of, so like one could be the township generically, and then we put everything under the township, so that's something the drafters could deal with, but rather than having it broken out, we need to think generically by major categories to say township and as it applies, would be my suggestion. I'm not sure what, maybe I'm missing it, what the recommendations are for number three. It looks like there's a factual discussion, it's a statement, but I don't, respectfully, I don't, maybe I'm missing it, I don't see a recommendation. Got it. That's a review of where we currently are. But we may not. The drafts can decide what to do with that. Okay. Isn't that the objective? The objective is to make the roads, so the 80% of the roads are not poor. Well, I guess if that's, if it's merely a, this is well done, if this is, we should just point that out. If it's a review, that's fine. Maybe that should be the first. I haven't disappeared. And that's thedish way of Kevin. That's a good opposite. So I'm losing it, I think the and we are looking for a little bit of a Thank you. we somehow yeah became our number three maybe that should be part of the intro the intro but kind of set the table table and say we got 80% that type of yeah that makes sense okay for gone Mike and I worked on this and we in the summary here we talked about what we did what we considered we could revise this to talk about recommendations and just reword these two bullets we recommend

  57. But we may not. The drafts can decide what to do with that. Okay. Isn't that the objective? The objective is to make the roads, so the 80% of the roads are not poor. Well, I guess if that's, if it's merely a, this is well done, if this is, we should just point that out. If it's a review, that's fine. Maybe that should be the first. I haven't disappeared. And that's thedish way of Kevin. That's a good opposite. So I'm losing it, I think the and we are looking for a little bit of a Thank you. we somehow yeah became our number three maybe that should be part of the intro the intro but kind of set the table table and say we got 80% that type of yeah that makes sense okay for gone Mike and I worked on this and we in the summary here we talked about what we did what we considered we could revise this to talk about recommendations and just reword these two bullets we recommend yeah so I will if it's okay with you Michael and I'll send it to you yeah you're gonna come and see me too yeah so we'll do that so I'll make it recommendations because you just say we'll continue to meet with elected representatives all right so I just yeah basic just a slight editing okay six then sort of cutting you want to use reducing why the patient here yeah I'm sorry I have a question about right before number four where you talk about the key limit Then you turn the page, and then it talks about how many mills, capacity remain, blah, blah, blah. Then you talk about reconstruction method, special assessment districts. Are we supposed to define what special assessment districts are and go through? We don't need to go through that. So that being said, one of the recommendations that we are going to have to come up with is who's going to get money first if we do decide to, if we find some money.

  58. to talk about recommendations and just reword these two bullets we recommend yeah so I will if it's okay with you Michael and I'll send it to you yeah you're gonna come and see me too yeah so we'll do that so I'll make it recommendations because you just say we'll continue to meet with elected representatives all right so I just yeah basic just a slight editing okay six then sort of cutting you want to use reducing why the patient here yeah I'm sorry I have a question about right before number four where you talk about the key limit Then you turn the page, and then it talks about how many mills, capacity remain, blah, blah, blah. Then you talk about reconstruction method, special assessment districts. Are we supposed to define what special assessment districts are and go through? We don't need to go through that. So that being said, one of the recommendations that we are going to have to come up with is who's going to get money first if we do decide to, if we find some money. Like let's say we find $5 million. Well, what area is going to get the money? And so one of the ways could do it, and I'm not saying the way, but one of the ways is if a subdivision says, okay, we'll do an SAD up to a certain point, and then the township say, okay, we'll match that or something like that, then they've made more of a commitment to that sort of a process. And is that something we want to consider? Because otherwise, you're going to have everyone, and this way would be a ready-made filter. I'm just throwing it out there because I know the angst in our subdivision, the people will say, well, why don't they pay for it all? Why don't they just, why are they getting stuff over there and we're not getting it here and stuff like that? Good point. Or maybe the recommendation would be to address special assessment districts. going forward and coming up with a system to allocate the funds. Yeah, that'd be good. Because we're not going to figure that out. Right. But at least we recognize the SADs and we need to be a system or a prioritization of allocation.

  59. So that being said, one of the recommendations that we are going to have to come up with is who's going to get money first if we do decide to, if we find some money. Like let's say we find $5 million. Well, what area is going to get the money? And so one of the ways could do it, and I'm not saying the way, but one of the ways is if a subdivision says, okay, we'll do an SAD up to a certain point, and then the township say, okay, we'll match that or something like that, then they've made more of a commitment to that sort of a process. And is that something we want to consider? Because otherwise, you're going to have everyone, and this way would be a ready-made filter. I'm just throwing it out there because I know the angst in our subdivision, the people will say, well, why don't they pay for it all? Why don't they just, why are they getting stuff over there and we're not getting it here and stuff like that? Good point. Or maybe the recommendation would be to address special assessment districts. going forward and coming up with a system to allocate the funds. Yeah, that'd be good. Because we're not going to figure that out. Right. But at least we recognize the SADs and we need to be a system or a prioritization of allocation. Perfect. So we've got to do both. So we've got to do the recommendation before with the Pacer. We would know which roads are the worst. Yeah. And then when you pay, it's 80-20 or whatever it is, that formula. Yeah, you're going to have to decide of the 80% which one you're going after first. Yeah. And did you use it as a Pacer report? There it is. With an S. We could kind of talk about that. And that's the reason to pick up on the next one and say the paper. We want to request that the Pacer gets updated because we're going to use that information to help as we try to find some money for the SADs. And the first recommendation we're talking about, maybe come up with, you know, $250 to $500 for SAD support. And we're also expecting something from the road commission. So maybe we just say the way to help us figure that out is to update the Pacer report. Do you intend to do the updated Pacer report on what periodicity? Every two years? I believe they said three. It's currently done a few. It's currently done a few.

  60. But at least we recognize the SADs and we need to be a system or a prioritization of allocation. Perfect. So we've got to do both. So we've got to do the recommendation before with the Pacer. We would know which roads are the worst. Yeah. And then when you pay, it's 80-20 or whatever it is, that formula. Yeah, you're going to have to decide of the 80% which one you're going after first. Yeah. And did you use it as a Pacer report? There it is. With an S. We could kind of talk about that. And that's the reason to pick up on the next one and say the paper. We want to request that the Pacer gets updated because we're going to use that information to help as we try to find some money for the SADs. And the first recommendation we're talking about, maybe come up with, you know, $250 to $500 for SAD support. And we're also expecting something from the road commission. So maybe we just say the way to help us figure that out is to update the Pacer report. Do you intend to do the updated Pacer report on what periodicity? Every two years? I believe they said three. It's currently done a few. It's currently done a few. Currently every three. Okay. So you're saying what should be the new cadence? What should be the new, yeah. I think it should be every two years. This is statewide. Mark Messler is here that used to be with the road commission. Mark, what's the average, how often do they do the pacer studies? I believe the road commission is every three years. Three to five years. If I can interject into what your outlook is, keep in mind that the SADs are generating by the residents themselves, and that doesn't necessarily correlate to a pacer rating. You get subdivisions. It's a perspective of the residents. I think I've shared my background with you before. I've done it with the road commission and ran the SAD program and et cetera. And I think the money that you're looking to allocate. Mark's going to step up for that. That's a good idea. I think the money that you're looking to allocate is a great idea. There's other townships that are on the lines of what you're looking to do as far as putting funds and, you know, be able to, as the township, be able to contribute towards the SADs, okay?

  61. Currently every three. Okay. So you're saying what should be the new cadence? What should be the new, yeah. I think it should be every two years. This is statewide. Mark Messler is here that used to be with the road commission. Mark, what's the average, how often do they do the pacer studies? I believe the road commission is every three years. Three to five years. If I can interject into what your outlook is, keep in mind that the SADs are generating by the residents themselves, and that doesn't necessarily correlate to a pacer rating. You get subdivisions. It's a perspective of the residents. I think I've shared my background with you before. I've done it with the road commission and ran the SAD program and et cetera. And I think the money that you're looking to allocate. Mark's going to step up for that. That's a good idea. I think the money that you're looking to allocate is a great idea. There's other townships that are on the lines of what you're looking to do as far as putting funds and, you know, be able to, as the township, be able to contribute towards the SADs, okay? I think in my perspective, in my experience, you need to kind of not necessarily look at the pacer rating and let that dictate you where you're going to allocate money. I think... I think you're going to get a good idea of what you're looking to do. You need to more look at what residents are interested. Because there's a process of, you know, you have to meet a legal criteria with Act 188 and et cetera, et cetera. And there's a lot of onus on the residents themselves to do the work to be able to get a legal petition obtained and, you know, get the residents on board within the subdivision. What are their project limits, et cetera, et cetera. And I think you'd, my recommendation would be is maybe look more at, okay, we're putting this $250,000 in a kitty or in a place where we can contribute to SADs that are moving forward rather than trying to use a PACER rating because what you'll find is, and what I've found in my career was, is that it's all perspective of the residents. There's a lot of roads that I presented that the road commission was gonna contribute.

  62. and, you know, be able to, as the township, be able to contribute towards the SADs, okay? I think in my perspective, in my experience, you need to kind of not necessarily look at the pacer rating and let that dictate you where you're going to allocate money. I think... I think you're going to get a good idea of what you're looking to do. You need to more look at what residents are interested. Because there's a process of, you know, you have to meet a legal criteria with Act 188 and et cetera, et cetera. And there's a lot of onus on the residents themselves to do the work to be able to get a legal petition obtained and, you know, get the residents on board within the subdivision. What are their project limits, et cetera, et cetera. And I think you'd, my recommendation would be is maybe look more at, okay, we're putting this $250,000 in a kitty or in a place where we can contribute to SADs that are moving forward rather than trying to use a PACER rating because what you'll find is, and what I've found in my career was, is that it's all perspective of the residents. There's a lot of roads that I presented that the road commission was gonna contribute. Waterford Township, you know, had recently put together a million dollars that they put in a fund to be able to contribute, and then they came back and said, well, we're gonna put another million dollars into that fund, okay? So they had a $2 million fund. And Waterford Township roads are horrendous. Horrendous, I mean, horrendous, right? But even with those contributions, residents weren't on board, or they weren't in a position, or they didn't have interest in- They were going to move on to the end of this month, and that time was about it. And I have to give some very quickly, and they were going to solve that, and they were going to do something to tell the end. so that's great. contributing or going through that legal process and making that commitment to a 12 000 assessment or whatever it may have been um so my my recommendation would be is that your vision is somehow how do we if we have five subdivisions come to us that have legal positions and they're interested in moving forward how do we disperse that 250 000 in 2026 versus this pacer rating piece because no i'd rather give it to motivated and i can appreciate what you're trying to do with the pacer but that pacer rating really means nothing to the residents right it's what they can live with and we've gone in and we've done subdivision roads in bloomfield township

  63. that the road commission was gonna contribute. Waterford Township, you know, had recently put together a million dollars that they put in a fund to be able to contribute, and then they came back and said, well, we're gonna put another million dollars into that fund, okay? So they had a $2 million fund. And Waterford Township roads are horrendous. Horrendous, I mean, horrendous, right? But even with those contributions, residents weren't on board, or they weren't in a position, or they didn't have interest in- They were going to move on to the end of this month, and that time was about it. And I have to give some very quickly, and they were going to solve that, and they were going to do something to tell the end. so that's great. contributing or going through that legal process and making that commitment to a 12 000 assessment or whatever it may have been um so my my recommendation would be is that your vision is somehow how do we if we have five subdivisions come to us that have legal positions and they're interested in moving forward how do we disperse that 250 000 in 2026 versus this pacer rating piece because no i'd rather give it to motivated and i can appreciate what you're trying to do with the pacer but that pacer rating really means nothing to the residents right it's what they can live with and we've gone in and we've done subdivision roads in bloomfield township that i would have never thought the residents would want to come in and redo and because they were you know they were in decent condition right but for them they were in terrible condition you know and in waterford there's subdivision roads in waterford that i to be honest with you i i i won't drive down right i mean they're that bad but and we presented you know i've presented personally myself i've presented those sads to the residents probably three four or five times and they have no interest in moving forward so just kind of a recommendation as to what my experience in the past was is maybe a look at a different avenue than using the PACER rating potentially as a guiding factor to how you distribute that money. Well, we would reward a motivated subdivision, so to speak. And part of it's the PACER rating, but no, you're absolutely right. And they have to be motivated to want to do it, but then if they're motivated, at least you can say you'll get a cooperative effort, and then maybe talk with Mike's department,

  64. what they can live with and we've gone in and we've done subdivision roads in bloomfield township that i would have never thought the residents would want to come in and redo and because they were you know they were in decent condition right but for them they were in terrible condition you know and in waterford there's subdivision roads in waterford that i to be honest with you i i i won't drive down right i mean they're that bad but and we presented you know i've presented personally myself i've presented those sads to the residents probably three four or five times and they have no interest in moving forward so just kind of a recommendation as to what my experience in the past was is maybe a look at a different avenue than using the PACER rating potentially as a guiding factor to how you distribute that money. Well, we would reward a motivated subdivision, so to speak. And part of it's the PACER rating, but no, you're absolutely right. And they have to be motivated to want to do it, but then if they're motivated, at least you can say you'll get a cooperative effort, and then maybe talk with Mike's department, say what's the least expensive way to do this, blah, blah, blah, and then you'll get enough people that will go along with it. Yeah, no, I don't think we were saying that we would limit whether we're going to do anything or not based upon the PACER rating. It's just it gives us more leverage with the RCOC and other people to say you have to react to this because it's so bad. And I'm not saying they will, but it's just something we have to, it has to be said. Yeah, and I do, I don't think that, you know, for the road commission's perspective after being there for 35 years and kind of overseeing their SAD program and et cetera, you know, they understand, like Waterford Township, right, they understand that these roads are horrendous and, you know, we have to do something as, for them, as potentially, well, we don't have the funding to do anything, right, so, and I think as Mike can attest, they're stepping up and, you know, contributing some. additional administration fees here in the past couple of years yeah you know to try to motivate residents but i just kind of wanted to interject that you know it just kind of put that vision out there as to but we'll have to come up with something the recommendation like we talked about

  65. you can say you'll get a cooperative effort, and then maybe talk with Mike's department, say what's the least expensive way to do this, blah, blah, blah, and then you'll get enough people that will go along with it. Yeah, no, I don't think we were saying that we would limit whether we're going to do anything or not based upon the PACER rating. It's just it gives us more leverage with the RCOC and other people to say you have to react to this because it's so bad. And I'm not saying they will, but it's just something we have to, it has to be said. Yeah, and I do, I don't think that, you know, for the road commission's perspective after being there for 35 years and kind of overseeing their SAD program and et cetera, you know, they understand, like Waterford Township, right, they understand that these roads are horrendous and, you know, we have to do something as, for them, as potentially, well, we don't have the funding to do anything, right, so, and I think as Mike can attest, they're stepping up and, you know, contributing some. additional administration fees here in the past couple of years yeah you know to try to motivate residents but i just kind of wanted to interject that you know it just kind of put that vision out there as to but we'll have to come up with something the recommendation like we talked about more generically that says if we have an over subscription i understand all the criteria to get there but what if we had five or six people say we want to come in we can either do we can divide it equally we can do first come first serve or we can use another analytical tool or two and to be quite frank it's you know independence township uh they really started this whole drive with the townships contributing towards um sads and i actually i say that uh oakland township was they ever since i'd been in this position they had contributed and what they did is they said an extra amount uh percentage of the project cost of the total project cost not to exceed and then you found that independence followed that afterwards waterford is falling into that with this you know uh million dollars and it did in a couple years ago they put another million dollars in and they were on all were on first come first serve basis so in independence how much was the the sad versus that what what they were there they were supplemented to yeah yeah i want to if i believe in i can research this and get back

  66. there as to but we'll have to come up with something the recommendation like we talked about more generically that says if we have an over subscription i understand all the criteria to get there but what if we had five or six people say we want to come in we can either do we can divide it equally we can do first come first serve or we can use another analytical tool or two and to be quite frank it's you know independence township uh they really started this whole drive with the townships contributing towards um sads and i actually i say that uh oakland township was they ever since i'd been in this position they had contributed and what they did is they said an extra amount uh percentage of the project cost of the total project cost not to exceed and then you found that independence followed that afterwards waterford is falling into that with this you know uh million dollars and it did in a couple years ago they put another million dollars in and they were on all were on first come first serve basis so in independence how much was the the sad versus that what what they were there they were supplemented to yeah yeah i want to if i believe in i can research this and get back you if I remember correctly it was in the Oakland Township was 10% not to exceed $25,000 originally they up that I don't recall exactly what independence was independence kind of went down another Avenue even past that where they're doing their own SADs and it's something that Mike and Darren and Corey and engineering we've talked about that there's some you know probably some more financial friendly ways of getting the roads to a condition that residents can accept without have to do full rehabilitations you know and I think part of the objective in outlook should be how do we financially friendly how do we address the roads that can be addressed now that aren't deteriorated to the fact of a full rehabilitation where we can come in and we can do an overlay and overlays are tremendously less expensive than coming in and doing a rehabilitation you know potentially you could take a $12,000 project that's a full rehabilitation and get that down to you know again I'm throwing numbers

  67. you if I remember correctly it was in the Oakland Township was 10% not to exceed $25,000 originally they up that I don't recall exactly what independence was independence kind of went down another Avenue even past that where they're doing their own SADs and it's something that Mike and Darren and Corey and engineering we've talked about that there's some you know probably some more financial friendly ways of getting the roads to a condition that residents can accept without have to do full rehabilitations you know and I think part of the objective in outlook should be how do we financially friendly how do we address the roads that can be addressed now that aren't deteriorated to the fact of a full rehabilitation where we can come in and we can do an overlay and overlays are tremendously less expensive than coming in and doing a rehabilitation you know potentially you could take a $12,000 project that's a full rehabilitation and get that down to you know again I'm throwing numbers out there but get it down to a four or five thousand dollar assessment for a resident and you're prolonging the longevity of that road before it gets to the point where it's deteriorated needs a full rehab I think your example on Waterford was very good. The reason the committee got a presentation from Canton Township and other where they are spreading the money that they collect from the millage and that's why the pacer diagram came in. Now right now the pacer, we are saying 80% is based on the RCOC countywide pacer diagram. So, there is some relationship based on what we learned from other communities. That's why the importance of pacer as an engineer, I think it's a good thing you can motivate people because if I am a homeowner HOA president and I think the roads need some. So in order to get 51% people to agree, you can have some technical background that look at this. Our subdivision road overall is, you know, they are all red, you know.

  68. full rehabilitation and get that down to you know again I'm throwing numbers out there but get it down to a four or five thousand dollar assessment for a resident and you're prolonging the longevity of that road before it gets to the point where it's deteriorated needs a full rehab I think your example on Waterford was very good. The reason the committee got a presentation from Canton Township and other where they are spreading the money that they collect from the millage and that's why the pacer diagram came in. Now right now the pacer, we are saying 80% is based on the RCOC countywide pacer diagram. So, there is some relationship based on what we learned from other communities. That's why the importance of pacer as an engineer, I think it's a good thing you can motivate people because if I am a homeowner HOA president and I think the roads need some. So in order to get 51% people to agree, you can have some technical background that look at this. Our subdivision road overall is, you know, they are all red, you know. And I'm not saying that the pacer rating doesn't hold value, right? But I will tell you what really holds value is dollars and cents coming out of a resident's pocket. I mean, I've presented these for 20 some years, right? And I held the night meetings and, you know, it's about the money. It's about what's coming out of their pocket is really what determines whether. And there's a really, really括. Leslie-A-Lissey-A-Lissey-istä here? project goes or not it's not how bad the road is it really comes down to you know what is their perspective what can they live with and people that are seeing a $15,000 assessment you know they're making the determination well I can drive down that bumpy road and keep $15,000 in my pocket because you know I got kids going to college or whatever it might truck playing travel sports whatever it might be whatever those decisions are but it really comes down to the dollars and the cents of what it is and using a prime example the Bloomfield Village projects you know those last three phases probably would not have moved forward if they did not get the contributions that they received to be able to get those assessments down from where they were

  69. Our subdivision road overall is, you know, they are all red, you know. And I'm not saying that the pacer rating doesn't hold value, right? But I will tell you what really holds value is dollars and cents coming out of a resident's pocket. I mean, I've presented these for 20 some years, right? And I held the night meetings and, you know, it's about the money. It's about what's coming out of their pocket is really what determines whether. And there's a really, really括. Leslie-A-Lissey-A-Lissey-istä here? project goes or not it's not how bad the road is it really comes down to you know what is their perspective what can they live with and people that are seeing a $15,000 assessment you know they're making the determination well I can drive down that bumpy road and keep $15,000 in my pocket because you know I got kids going to college or whatever it might truck playing travel sports whatever it might be whatever those decisions are but it really comes down to the dollars and the cents of what it is and using a prime example the Bloomfield Village projects you know those last three phases probably would not have moved forward if they did not get the contributions that they received to be able to get those assessments down from where they were do we have to adjourn at six o'clock sorry we're at number seven I think we have it looks I know that Fred and Mindy are two very busy people and we've got it looks like two very thoughtful yes uh pack you know proposals yep and we got knowing that Mindy sent something yesterday yep and then I I'm reading between the lines but it looks like what we see here is Fred's proposal and because they're so busy they may not have been able to connect to to to put together one single proposal also. So I think we should ask them to come back with recommendation format, not background or just recommendation format. They can harmonize there to come up with a single set of recommendations. I don't feel comfortable revising in, you know, yeah, I agree. I think they put a lot of time and thought. Yeah, they did. And we owe them the opportunity to make a presentation. Yeah. And I think, but let them come up with a single recommendation because there's some

  70. received to be able to get those assessments down from where they were do we have to adjourn at six o'clock sorry we're at number seven I think we have it looks I know that Fred and Mindy are two very busy people and we've got it looks like two very thoughtful yes uh pack you know proposals yep and we got knowing that Mindy sent something yesterday yep and then I I'm reading between the lines but it looks like what we see here is Fred's proposal and because they're so busy they may not have been able to connect to to to put together one single proposal also. So I think we should ask them to come back with recommendation format, not background or just recommendation format. They can harmonize there to come up with a single set of recommendations. I don't feel comfortable revising in, you know, yeah, I agree. I think they put a lot of time and thought. Yeah, they did. And we owe them the opportunity to make a presentation. Yeah. And I think, but let them come up with a single recommendation because there's some consistency between the two, but there's a little bit of difference between the two. Sure. It's just, and I think it's just a scheduling, busy schedule issue. Yeah. And I think Sue received a PowerPoint from Mindy late last night. Right. And didn't have time to put it in. I understand. But I mean, I've looked at that and I see, as I say, some harmony, but some lack of harmony between the two and let them sort it out because they're the ones that have really taken a deep dive. So I think we should let them come back to us. I think it's a good idea. There's some, some of the items in there, you know, talking to a couple of people is, uh, more emotional than, uh, factual or evidence-based like we got to know how many building permits, uh, whether the building permits, uh, and- The building, uh, you get a certain manufacturing you've got to use so much of where it is. what is the connection with it all kind of thing well I think Jeff can talk to them about here's the we got a recommendation format we moved in that direction and take your two and come up with one and you know we'll go from there and these are recommendations they're not actually something you're

  71. Yeah. And I think, but let them come up with a single recommendation because there's some consistency between the two, but there's a little bit of difference between the two. Sure. It's just, and I think it's just a scheduling, busy schedule issue. Yeah. And I think Sue received a PowerPoint from Mindy late last night. Right. And didn't have time to put it in. I understand. But I mean, I've looked at that and I see, as I say, some harmony, but some lack of harmony between the two and let them sort it out because they're the ones that have really taken a deep dive. So I think we should let them come back to us. I think it's a good idea. There's some, some of the items in there, you know, talking to a couple of people is, uh, more emotional than, uh, factual or evidence-based like we got to know how many building permits, uh, whether the building permits, uh, and- The building, uh, you get a certain manufacturing you've got to use so much of where it is. what is the connection with it all kind of thing well I think Jeff can talk to them about here's the we got a recommendation format we moved in that direction and take your two and come up with one and you know we'll go from there and these are recommendations they're not actually something you're going to carry out you may not even want to vote for it respectfully it's up to the supervisors and Mike McCready trustees the big should we continue this discussion then in the next meeting two weeks from now I think we've gotten as far as we can today yeah but do we want to come back with a yeah but what we've agreed and start to draft the report by a subcommittee before the next meeting you want to wait for the next meeting I think we should let's wait till we till they come back till they come back and then after that we'll get together and work on that presentation it doesn't fit in my opinion I don't think we should it pays to start doing that if we don't have we need a little bit more yeah well we definitely have a good base foundation yeah we just have to integrate as much of that stuff that we want to know we had a great public comment I'm sorry if I brought Jimmy in but it was so important I texted him to say come and yeah no and and then Darren's presentation is so educational sure it was great yeah now I maybe even kind of understand

  72. there and these are recommendations they're not actually something you're going to carry out you may not even want to vote for it respectfully it's up to the supervisors and Mike McCready trustees the big should we continue this discussion then in the next meeting two weeks from now I think we've gotten as far as we can today yeah but do we want to come back with a yeah but what we've agreed and start to draft the report by a subcommittee before the next meeting you want to wait for the next meeting I think we should let's wait till we till they come back till they come back and then after that we'll get together and work on that presentation it doesn't fit in my opinion I don't think we should it pays to start doing that if we don't have we need a little bit more yeah well we definitely have a good base foundation yeah we just have to integrate as much of that stuff that we want to know we had a great public comment I'm sorry if I brought Jimmy in but it was so important I texted him to say come and yeah no and and then Darren's presentation is so educational sure it was great yeah now I maybe even kind of understand I like explaining it yeah so next agenda if you want to finish the report we should not have any more presentations we should just do the report because otherwise we are stretching too much I know it's right but but that was so important because of the misconception that's the thing no that's exactly right well the problem is this concept these weren't here yeah I wish Fred was here well but it's not just if you talk to anybody in the township 99% of the think well look at all it that's going to tell you all this money that's coming in they will that Birmingham they shouldn't have any taxes for the next 50 years but they do most people can Jeff that unless you sell your house you know the new owner you're gonna pay their their property tax then jump but your property going to stay every year even though your SCV equalized value might go up but the property taxes so most people do understand that part that's part of the burden of not selling or not selling at

  73. I like explaining it yeah so next agenda if you want to finish the report we should not have any more presentations we should just do the report because otherwise we are stretching too much I know it's right but but that was so important because of the misconception that's the thing no that's exactly right well the problem is this concept these weren't here yeah I wish Fred was here well but it's not just if you talk to anybody in the township 99% of the think well look at all it that's going to tell you all this money that's coming in they will that Birmingham they shouldn't have any taxes for the next 50 years but they do most people can Jeff that unless you sell your house you know the new owner you're gonna pay their their property tax then jump but your property going to stay every year even though your SCV equalized value might go up but the property taxes so most people do understand that part that's part of the burden of not selling or not selling at our age right I mean where am I where are you gonna go and get a better deal you're not you're not you can't buy your own house you can't buy on you You know, the other thing that he talked about was this business about stopping the uncapping, the new legislation, meaning right now if you sell your house, it gets uncapped. The new owner is going to pay the higher. And I did the research on that myself. What the legislature wants to do is say, no, you sell your house, it's still going to be capped. The new owner is going to get the all value. That's what that is. You mean the cost basis is going to stay? It's not going to, it won't be uncapped. And then a new, let's say for argument's sake, my house is taxable value is $250,000. Okay? So I sell it for a million two. Sure. So the taxable value is about $500,000. Under the new proposal, it's going to stay $250,000. That's a huge loss to the taxable. That's the new legislation. That's a huge loss. No, it's not. No, it's capping. And here's why it's not. Because of the rollback, it simply won't be rolled back as much.

  74. taxes so most people do understand that part that's part of the burden of not selling or not selling at our age right I mean where am I where are you gonna go and get a better deal you're not you're not you can't buy your own house you can't buy on you You know, the other thing that he talked about was this business about stopping the uncapping, the new legislation, meaning right now if you sell your house, it gets uncapped. The new owner is going to pay the higher. And I did the research on that myself. What the legislature wants to do is say, no, you sell your house, it's still going to be capped. The new owner is going to get the all value. That's what that is. You mean the cost basis is going to stay? It's not going to, it won't be uncapped. And then a new, let's say for argument's sake, my house is taxable value is $250,000. Okay? So I sell it for a million two. Sure. So the taxable value is about $500,000. Under the new proposal, it's going to stay $250,000. That's a huge loss to the taxable. That's the new legislation. That's a huge loss. No, it's not. No, it's capping. And here's why it's not. Because of the rollback, it simply won't be rolled back as much. In other words, so let's say it doesn't go up to $500,000, it stays at $250,000. Well, there's no rollback. It stays the same. Now, if it went up to $500,000, now all of a sudden we'd have a millage rollback. So are they done on that effect, if they pass that, what would happen? Well, they're claiming that municipalities are going to get raped. Get hosed. But if you look at what he told us and you look at how the millage, how it works, there's not going to be an increase. revenue so they won't still there won't be a rollback it'll stay the same it'll still be three percent increase or a rate of inflation that's the way that's I don't anyway I do understand so he talks about luxury services and that's the first I heard of it unfortunately so I'm gonna do some research I'm gonna look into that right away no and then can guarantee you that they'll pass it all and we won't get a dime of it and then I have one question for Mike do we have a how does this subdivision go about having someone go through and see a replacement or overlay would be considered but with the best consideration is there a department person that I can call you can I turn it over to a professional for a minute sure the answer that question mark yep the

  75. Because of the rollback, it simply won't be rolled back as much. In other words, so let's say it doesn't go up to $500,000, it stays at $250,000. Well, there's no rollback. It stays the same. Now, if it went up to $500,000, now all of a sudden we'd have a millage rollback. So are they done on that effect, if they pass that, what would happen? Well, they're claiming that municipalities are going to get raped. Get hosed. But if you look at what he told us and you look at how the millage, how it works, there's not going to be an increase. revenue so they won't still there won't be a rollback it'll stay the same it'll still be three percent increase or a rate of inflation that's the way that's I don't anyway I do understand so he talks about luxury services and that's the first I heard of it unfortunately so I'm gonna do some research I'm gonna look into that right away no and then can guarantee you that they'll pass it all and we won't get a dime of it and then I have one question for Mike do we have a how does this subdivision go about having someone go through and see a replacement or overlay would be considered but with the best consideration is there a department person that I can call you can I turn it over to a professional for a minute sure the answer that question mark yep the podium please in just a two-minute one that is something that the township has put into place so the township is hired myself as a consultant to to do just that so yeah feel free to reach out and then we can get in there we're we're currently I think we have a list of eight of them that we're currently looking at the same questions that you have for residents very good mr. chair I move we're adjourned folks thank you very much