the-compact
Road Advisory Committee Thursday, April 16, 2026 · 54 min

Bloomfield Township Road Advisory Committee Meeting on April 15, 2026

Summary

The city council discussed phase two documents, chloride levels in Forest Lake, and potential solutions to protect the lake's ecosystem, including reducing salt intake and regulating road drainage.

  • City council set deadlines for presentations on phase two documents.
  • Council members discussed upcoming meetings and task assignments.
  • Oakland County Road Commission discussed meeting agenda and public comment on Forest Lake chloride level.
  • City council discussed chloride levels in Forest Lake and potential solutions to protect the lake's ecosystem.
  • Council members discussed industry practices, economic drivers, and environmental concerns regarding stormwater management.

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Topics

Transcript

Click any timestamp to jump the video to that moment. Auto-transcribed; expect occasional errors on proper nouns.

  1. I will now move to the next item on the agenda. The next item on the agenda is the phase two documents. Where we were, there was the outline. Susan, if you could bring up the outline on the board for us. Mr. McRae, where is Ms. Steele? Is she not coming? She is. I think she was still talking to Martin, so she missed her public comment. We can go back to her. We will, we're flexible, so if we need to have a comment, we'll do it at the end of the meeting, so, or maybe sooner so you guys can go home. Please, Steve. Okay, all right, look, we're flexible. Okay, here's what the, what I'd like to, today, our presenter, as you know, was unavailable, and so he's going to come on the next meeting. So, and that was going to be from the Road Commission of Oakland County. So what I thought would be good for us to do is to take a look at our outline. That's up on the screen, and start to put end dates for each one of the groups to start to present, because we need to start coming to some conclusions and start putting some goals or aspirations of what we want to do. So what I'd like to do at this point in the meeting is go through each one of these and have someone representing one of those groups mention when they think they could do it. And so I guess, Mike, you and I are the first ones up. Right. Okay. And excuse me, let me just also keep everybody. All right. All right. Thank you. in reference, I did get this from Susan. You talk about upcoming meetings. We have 429, which will be in two weeks. Then we have 513, then we will miss the other one because of the holiday, and then in June, we'll have 610, 624, and then we'll miss the one because of July 4th, and then we go to 722. I think, aspirationally, I'd like to say we try to get this stuff done by June before July 4th, and I think we could get it. Absolute. Agreed, okay, so let's kind of do that. And the first one up is the increased funding for township debt, which Mike and I are responsible for. I would like to suggest that, Mike, we do that on the 13th of May. Okay. Because what we're gonna have is the Oakland County Road on 429, so that one will be, we can still work in one or two of these, but that's gonna be the bulk of the meeting. So Mike and I will go for 513.

  2. So what I'd like to do at this point in the meeting is go through each one of these and have someone representing one of those groups mention when they think they could do it. And so I guess, Mike, you and I are the first ones up. Right. Okay. And excuse me, let me just also keep everybody. All right. All right. Thank you. in reference, I did get this from Susan. You talk about upcoming meetings. We have 429, which will be in two weeks. Then we have 513, then we will miss the other one because of the holiday, and then in June, we'll have 610, 624, and then we'll miss the one because of July 4th, and then we go to 722. I think, aspirationally, I'd like to say we try to get this stuff done by June before July 4th, and I think we could get it. Absolute. Agreed, okay, so let's kind of do that. And the first one up is the increased funding for township debt, which Mike and I are responsible for. I would like to suggest that, Mike, we do that on the 13th of May. Okay. Because what we're gonna have is the Oakland County Road on 429, so that one will be, we can still work in one or two of these, but that's gonna be the bulk of the meeting. So Mike and I will go for 513. Next is the Oakland County Road Commission. Basically, that will be the meeting of 429. And if you saw the slides in advance, you saw pretty much the kind of things we're talking about, then that doesn't mean that our subcommittee then will take that presentation and then bring it back to the committee with some summaries, so we'll get that information. So next one up is the number three. Anybody like to say when you think they can do that one? I'm one. I'm one. ready to give it to you right now oh I mean I I had trouble wrestling with you know do we really need to regurgitate this and I said all right I'll regurgitate it one more time okay and make sure we get out there and it basically goes through the pros and cons of what our options are and I know we weren't we weren't supposed to editorialize on what we think the solution is so I took that out but I'm ready for that too okay and just goes through the mills and and the caps and when they expire and it's they have it in one document okay so I'm ready I can clean it up it needs a little cleaning up okay we will so Tom are you

  3. Next is the Oakland County Road Commission. Basically, that will be the meeting of 429. And if you saw the slides in advance, you saw pretty much the kind of things we're talking about, then that doesn't mean that our subcommittee then will take that presentation and then bring it back to the committee with some summaries, so we'll get that information. So next one up is the number three. Anybody like to say when you think they can do that one? I'm one. I'm one. ready to give it to you right now oh I mean I I had trouble wrestling with you know do we really need to regurgitate this and I said all right I'll regurgitate it one more time okay and make sure we get out there and it basically goes through the pros and cons of what our options are and I know we weren't we weren't supposed to editorialize on what we think the solution is so I took that out but I'm ready for that too okay and just goes through the mills and and the caps and when they expire and it's they have it in one document okay so I'm ready I can clean it up it needs a little cleaning up okay we will so Tom are you ready for today you want to go today or you want to wait well I'm not emotionally or spiritually ready to do it but it's done physically okay so physically I could wait maybe what you do how about 513 with the other group 513 would be fine okay for that okay we're gonna take a pause in our meeting and return back to the part of the agenda where we have public comment we have someone who would like to speak to us so would you please come up and go to the podium and introduce yourself So, what I wanted to talk about is the chloride level in Forest Lake, which is too high and due to salt, according to Tigris, the company which has assessed it. Furthermore, we have a dead spot in the middle of the lake, which is not going away, kind of staying the same size. But, and I have, I've been the riparian representative for going on my fourth year now, so I have tried to research what can be done to remedy the situation.

  4. ready I can clean it up it needs a little cleaning up okay we will so Tom are you ready for today you want to go today or you want to wait well I'm not emotionally or spiritually ready to do it but it's done physically okay so physically I could wait maybe what you do how about 513 with the other group 513 would be fine okay for that okay we're gonna take a pause in our meeting and return back to the part of the agenda where we have public comment we have someone who would like to speak to us so would you please come up and go to the podium and introduce yourself So, what I wanted to talk about is the chloride level in Forest Lake, which is too high and due to salt, according to Tigris, the company which has assessed it. Furthermore, we have a dead spot in the middle of the lake, which is not going away, kind of staying the same size. But, and I have, I've been the riparian representative for going on my fourth year now, so I have tried to research what can be done to remedy the situation. And according to them, you need to stop using salt, of course, or start using salt alternatives near the lake, near our lake. It's a small lake, and I guess when Telegraph and Square Lake were redone, they're running off into Forest Lake. That I was told several years ago. Noah, help me out here. Yes, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. Right. So, we're going to kill the lake, basically. I don't want to be overly dramatic, but if we talk, reduce how much salt we're pouring into that lake. You know, it, it's a, it's a lovely community. It's got a lot of beautiful fish, and, um. It's a And then we'll see you next time. oh sorry okay that's okay i'm loud enough everybody can hear me um anyway so any help i can get from you guys um our community would greatly appreciate it and then also we have forest lake country club

  5. But, and I have, I've been the riparian representative for going on my fourth year now, so I have tried to research what can be done to remedy the situation. And according to them, you need to stop using salt, of course, or start using salt alternatives near the lake, near our lake. It's a small lake, and I guess when Telegraph and Square Lake were redone, they're running off into Forest Lake. That I was told several years ago. Noah, help me out here. Yes, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. Right. So, we're going to kill the lake, basically. I don't want to be overly dramatic, but if we talk, reduce how much salt we're pouring into that lake. You know, it, it's a, it's a lovely community. It's got a lot of beautiful fish, and, um. It's a And then we'll see you next time. oh sorry okay that's okay i'm loud enough everybody can hear me um anyway so any help i can get from you guys um our community would greatly appreciate it and then also we have forest lake country club on that lake so it also benefits all of their members but i'm a homeowner there right next to the club and i'm worried and it's not getting any better yes um when you identified that the the culprit did they give you an alternative or they just said this is what the chemical they said there are chemical alternatives that we could be using no but they did they say there's can they do anything about what's in there now we're only monitoring the dead spot right now it hasn't grown like they have chelating agents that can pull it out maybe but the chloride level is high everywhere in the lake well i mean the whole lake would have to be treated that's my point right okay well i'd rather not treat the lake i would rather reduce the salt intake that would make sense yes assuming just to play it out if there is an alternative used and no more chlorine you know gets in there how long would it take to go from we stop salt salt and now it's a

  6. you guys um our community would greatly appreciate it and then also we have forest lake country club on that lake so it also benefits all of their members but i'm a homeowner there right next to the club and i'm worried and it's not getting any better yes um when you identified that the the culprit did they give you an alternative or they just said this is what the chemical they said there are chemical alternatives that we could be using no but they did they say there's can they do anything about what's in there now we're only monitoring the dead spot right now it hasn't grown like they have chelating agents that can pull it out maybe but the chloride level is high everywhere in the lake well i mean the whole lake would have to be treated that's my point right okay well i'd rather not treat the lake i would rather reduce the salt intake that would make sense yes assuming just to play it out if there is an alternative used and no more chlorine you know gets in there how long would it take to go from we stop salt salt and now it's a I'll call it, for want of a better term, a healthy leg. I can find out. I don't know because we haven't even entertained the idea yet. I'm just trying to. Right, I don't know. I'm a former pharmacist. I'm pretty good with chemistry. I think I can possibly dig up some information, work with some resources. I can come back to you with an answer. But what I want to do here is stopgap the bleed. If, a follow-up? I mean, if, what is the cost of the other agents versus the cost? Oh, they're more expensive. And does it require different equipment? I don't think so. I don't think so. Can I ask a question? Sure. I'm glad that you were volunteering your time in your lake. I'm also, I was for eight years, I was on the Hobbit Lake, riparian. And Jay replaced you. And you're still involved. Right. So the question is, what are the times when this, for how long this sodium chloride level's been peaking up in your lake? And is there a certain time of the year, summer or winter?

  7. I'll call it, for want of a better term, a healthy leg. I can find out. I don't know because we haven't even entertained the idea yet. I'm just trying to. Right, I don't know. I'm a former pharmacist. I'm pretty good with chemistry. I think I can possibly dig up some information, work with some resources. I can come back to you with an answer. But what I want to do here is stopgap the bleed. If, a follow-up? I mean, if, what is the cost of the other agents versus the cost? Oh, they're more expensive. And does it require different equipment? I don't think so. I don't think so. Can I ask a question? Sure. I'm glad that you were volunteering your time in your lake. I'm also, I was for eight years, I was on the Hobbit Lake, riparian. And Jay replaced you. And you're still involved. Right. So the question is, what are the times when this, for how long this sodium chloride level's been peaking up in your lake? And is there a certain time of the year, summer or winter? We, we monitor the lake in the, in the summer because obviously they're, they're not going out there with the ice. But the third slide, where's the third one I sent? I sent one with. Mike Monday night what happened to that sheet the chloride sheet and it had the years on it okay so those are all abnormal levels does that only measure chloride is that what you're focused on we we measure all the nutrients what about other nutrients like fertilizers and things like we're getting a little high on the nitrates but you know unfortunately and we've asked all the neighbors but the clubs are still allowed to use nitrate so if those of you that have friends over at Forest Lake Country Club I'm a member there but I don't seem to be making any impact maybe you could recommend it at Forest Lake Country Club that they cut back on their nitrate levels that's a large catchment area the golf course it certainly is so the rest of us you know the little guys we're containing our nitrate but then the big fish doesn't have to have you done a

  8. And is there a certain time of the year, summer or winter? We, we monitor the lake in the, in the summer because obviously they're, they're not going out there with the ice. But the third slide, where's the third one I sent? I sent one with. Mike Monday night what happened to that sheet the chloride sheet and it had the years on it okay so those are all abnormal levels does that only measure chloride is that what you're focused on we we measure all the nutrients what about other nutrients like fertilizers and things like we're getting a little high on the nitrates but you know unfortunately and we've asked all the neighbors but the clubs are still allowed to use nitrate so if those of you that have friends over at Forest Lake Country Club I'm a member there but I don't seem to be making any impact maybe you could recommend it at Forest Lake Country Club that they cut back on their nitrate levels that's a large catchment area the golf course it certainly is so the rest of us you know the little guys we're containing our nitrate but then the big fish doesn't have to have you done a fish study to see what is the no my husband is a fisherman however and he says we're losing bass the pike are doing fine and some fish are doing fine but our bass population has been decreasing since he's been fishing former educators so I know he pays attention yes There's a lot of lakes. Yeah, we should be paying attention to what salt we're putting on a lot of those lakes. That one right off of my health course, maybe it's having bigger issues than others. With the chloride? Yeah. They didn't seem to, yeah. Why are the other ones not having an issue, but you are? They're bigger also? Let's let her finish. They don't have you make it. All I know is all the questions I've asked indicate that the roads drain into that lake. So maybe our proximity? Noah would have to give you the answers. It's probably that they're not asking. Okay. Okay. Hang on. We've got to keep this decorum here.

  9. we're containing our nitrate but then the big fish doesn't have to have you done a fish study to see what is the no my husband is a fisherman however and he says we're losing bass the pike are doing fine and some fish are doing fine but our bass population has been decreasing since he's been fishing former educators so I know he pays attention yes There's a lot of lakes. Yeah, we should be paying attention to what salt we're putting on a lot of those lakes. That one right off of my health course, maybe it's having bigger issues than others. With the chloride? Yeah. They didn't seem to, yeah. Why are the other ones not having an issue, but you are? They're bigger also? Let's let her finish. They don't have you make it. All I know is all the questions I've asked indicate that the roads drain into that lake. So maybe our proximity? Noah would have to give you the answers. It's probably that they're not asking. Okay. Okay. Hang on. We've got to keep this decorum here. Is there anything else you'd like to say before we have it? No, that's it. Okay. Just looking for some help from you guys. And then also, I don't know, are they involved with the WEIR project at all? The what? The what? Who's that? The WEIR project for Forest Lake. Who's involved? This commission? No. Okay. All right. So that's it. Okay. It's not a little ask. I know it's a big ask. I know it's more expensive. And also, I would like some communication with the private neighborhoods adjacent to Forest Lake, like Heron Bay and Turtle Lake and Lockridge, and ask them to use alternatives also. Well, we can add a little thought. Okay. All right. because I don't have authority to send out a letter to do so. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you, gentlemen. All right. Please come up and provide your input. All right. So to answer that question, it's from Noah Mahalski. I'm the DPW director at Bloomfield Township. So probably Salinity, the other lakes aren't checking for it. And so until you look for a contaminant, you won't know it's there and what level,

  10. Is there anything else you'd like to say before we have it? No, that's it. Okay. Just looking for some help from you guys. And then also, I don't know, are they involved with the WEIR project at all? The what? The what? Who's that? The WEIR project for Forest Lake. Who's involved? This commission? No. Okay. All right. So that's it. Okay. It's not a little ask. I know it's a big ask. I know it's more expensive. And also, I would like some communication with the private neighborhoods adjacent to Forest Lake, like Heron Bay and Turtle Lake and Lockridge, and ask them to use alternatives also. Well, we can add a little thought. Okay. All right. because I don't have authority to send out a letter to do so. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you, gentlemen. All right. Please come up and provide your input. All right. So to answer that question, it's from Noah Mahalski. I'm the DPW director at Bloomfield Township. So probably Salinity, the other lakes aren't checking for it. And so until you look for a contaminant, you won't know it's there and what level, and they're probably not paying. You guys are the only. I think there's one other lake. Right. I think there's only one other lake board in the township that actually does any sort of chemical testing whatsoever. Most of the other lake boards are set up so they can do chemical treatment of weeds in the lake. So what I can say is, yeah, it's a dynamic problem. In this case in particular, a lot of Telegraph Road does, in fact, drain to, and all the businesses along the Miracle Mile do drain to that county drain, which bypasses Square Lake, goes down into Turtle Lake, and then ends up in Forest Lake, then in that branch of the Rouge River down there. So you've got multiple entities, as you've even said, the contingent of private treaters in this area is very predominant with Lock Ridge, Heron Bay, all those roads are treated by a private entity, and they have no restrictions on their treatment. So that's a problem. problem. As far as the township goes, we only salt hills, curves, and intersections. And around sensitive areas, we do not salt unless public safety dictates it. Like during an ice storm, you can't just salt hills, curves, and intersections because everybody would be

  11. And so until you look for a contaminant, you won't know it's there and what level, and they're probably not paying. You guys are the only. I think there's one other lake. Right. I think there's only one other lake board in the township that actually does any sort of chemical testing whatsoever. Most of the other lake boards are set up so they can do chemical treatment of weeds in the lake. So what I can say is, yeah, it's a dynamic problem. In this case in particular, a lot of Telegraph Road does, in fact, drain to, and all the businesses along the Miracle Mile do drain to that county drain, which bypasses Square Lake, goes down into Turtle Lake, and then ends up in Forest Lake, then in that branch of the Rouge River down there. So you've got multiple entities, as you've even said, the contingent of private treaters in this area is very predominant with Lock Ridge, Heron Bay, all those roads are treated by a private entity, and they have no restrictions on their treatment. So that's a problem. problem. As far as the township goes, we only salt hills, curves, and intersections. And around sensitive areas, we do not salt unless public safety dictates it. Like during an ice storm, you can't just salt hills, curves, and intersections because everybody would be crashing all over. So, you know, there's like an inverse line between public safety and the amount of allowable deaths and salt use. So, and it's just a reality of it. The more you could go out there and salt in every event and put an inch of salt down on the road, but that's not cost effective. That's not good for the environment. That's a bad way to be, right? So at the township, there's several layers to the controls here. And then there's also a state permit that's still being, it's like pending at the state for chloride use. And that will regulate, I hope it regulates private entities as well, because I believe that they're a much bigger source of the chloride. Like if you've seen a public, like a strip mall, you can literally see the salt down on the ground, whereas we're not, we can't do that because of costs, because of environmental. And we can't do that because we have controls on the trucks. They basically know how fast the truck is going. We have a setting and that's how much salt can be put down on the roadway. Our drivers can keep hitting the blast button and nothing happens. It's like a, you know, a placebo, because we, there are regulated amounts of how much we can put down on the road.

  12. you can't just salt hills, curves, and intersections because everybody would be crashing all over. So, you know, there's like an inverse line between public safety and the amount of allowable deaths and salt use. So, and it's just a reality of it. The more you could go out there and salt in every event and put an inch of salt down on the road, but that's not cost effective. That's not good for the environment. That's a bad way to be, right? So at the township, there's several layers to the controls here. And then there's also a state permit that's still being, it's like pending at the state for chloride use. And that will regulate, I hope it regulates private entities as well, because I believe that they're a much bigger source of the chloride. Like if you've seen a public, like a strip mall, you can literally see the salt down on the ground, whereas we're not, we can't do that because of costs, because of environmental. And we can't do that because we have controls on the trucks. They basically know how fast the truck is going. We have a setting and that's how much salt can be put down on the roadway. Our drivers can keep hitting the blast button and nothing happens. It's like a, you know, a placebo, because we, there are regulated amounts of how much we can put down on the road. And we put it down right in the middle of the roadway to try and get it to act on the roadway. We also pre-wet, which gets it in, like salt doesn't work when it's in a rock form. You have to get it into solution, and then it can start melting snow, right? So we put it on the middle of the roadway, so as it goes down, you start to make the solution. By the time you get to the edge of the roadway, it's diluted. I will say, again, our use, and we can make brine here and utilize that product on the roadways, and it's much more effective. So you just use, A, economics it works. You use less salt. That's less cost to my department. And also the less salt we can put down on the roadways. My college background is in an environmental degree first, and then a resource management second. So it's near and dear to my heart. Additionally, I mentioned this permit. So the state came out with a draft permit to regulate chlorides. This is at the state level, again, through EGL. And it's like in the public input time period because road commissions, like, and I would definitely invite the road, you said they're coming in the future.

  13. And we put it down right in the middle of the roadway to try and get it to act on the roadway. We also pre-wet, which gets it in, like salt doesn't work when it's in a rock form. You have to get it into solution, and then it can start melting snow, right? So we put it on the middle of the roadway, so as it goes down, you start to make the solution. By the time you get to the edge of the roadway, it's diluted. I will say, again, our use, and we can make brine here and utilize that product on the roadways, and it's much more effective. So you just use, A, economics it works. You use less salt. That's less cost to my department. And also the less salt we can put down on the roadways. My college background is in an environmental degree first, and then a resource management second. So it's near and dear to my heart. Additionally, I mentioned this permit. So the state came out with a draft permit to regulate chlorides. This is at the state level, again, through EGL. And it's like in the public input time period because road commissions, like, and I would definitely invite the road, you said they're coming in the future. They can certainly speak to their use of chlorides, and they take care of Telegraph Road out there. So that's a big contributor in this area. So they should have a program similar to ours in place where they have. controllers on the vehicles they are not manual operations and they have policies in place that dictate again hills curves and intersections or areas that are sensitive that they don't want to put chlorides in additionally it kind of bridges to the summer months because we use chloride on dirt roads and the county a lot of their dirt roads a lot of ours go right next to lakes that type of stuff so that's kind of where we're at with that I would say MDOT probably not as big of a player here because of our COC so when they come in here make sure they're prepared to answer the environmental question they have an entire environmental division at the Road Commission not just one person that type of stuff but that's kind of where you you know would go and kind of get the controls we are controlling it now to talk about chloride period it's it's a tricky one chloride accumulates and it's heavier because you know the water

  14. And it's like in the public input time period because road commissions, like, and I would definitely invite the road, you said they're coming in the future. They can certainly speak to their use of chlorides, and they take care of Telegraph Road out there. So that's a big contributor in this area. So they should have a program similar to ours in place where they have. controllers on the vehicles they are not manual operations and they have policies in place that dictate again hills curves and intersections or areas that are sensitive that they don't want to put chlorides in additionally it kind of bridges to the summer months because we use chloride on dirt roads and the county a lot of their dirt roads a lot of ours go right next to lakes that type of stuff so that's kind of where we're at with that I would say MDOT probably not as big of a player here because of our COC so when they come in here make sure they're prepared to answer the environmental question they have an entire environmental division at the Road Commission not just one person that type of stuff but that's kind of where you you know would go and kind of get the controls we are controlling it now to talk about chloride period it's it's a tricky one chloride accumulates and it's heavier because you know the water without the chlorides in it is lighter than the water that has the chlorides it's very hard to get the chlorides out of solution so you many other pollutants you can run it through a wetland in the wetland I'll kind of scrub the pollutants like organics let's say some sewer treatment plants use wetlands to treat the water right but salt will not be removed by a wetland they will not be taken out of solution. Like if you think of all the salt mines and things that we have around, those were basically shallow seas, that stuff fell out, evaporated the water away, right? And that's why the salt came out of solution. It's very hard to create a system that will scrub that. What's been seen to be effective, and Mr. Cousineau has proposed this to the DNR in the past, is you basically, the solution to pollution is dilution. They basically do a bottom draw in the lake. So again, your bottom of the lake is acting as a salt sink, right? You remove the salt from the bottom of the lake, you send it downstream, in this case, down the Rouge River there, and you basically pass the problem on to the next person.

  15. tricky one chloride accumulates and it's heavier because you know the water without the chlorides in it is lighter than the water that has the chlorides it's very hard to get the chlorides out of solution so you many other pollutants you can run it through a wetland in the wetland I'll kind of scrub the pollutants like organics let's say some sewer treatment plants use wetlands to treat the water right but salt will not be removed by a wetland they will not be taken out of solution. Like if you think of all the salt mines and things that we have around, those were basically shallow seas, that stuff fell out, evaporated the water away, right? And that's why the salt came out of solution. It's very hard to create a system that will scrub that. What's been seen to be effective, and Mr. Cousineau has proposed this to the DNR in the past, is you basically, the solution to pollution is dilution. They basically do a bottom draw in the lake. So again, your bottom of the lake is acting as a salt sink, right? You remove the salt from the bottom of the lake, you send it downstream, in this case, down the Rouge River there, and you basically pass the problem on to the next person. And so the DEQ was not in for that, you know, and in fact- I'm not in. Right, and if you know the Nature Center, they actually do chemical monitoring on the river as well, and so I think you might have a problem with them as well, because sometimes that creek isn't even flowing very much out of Forest Lake. So, you know, I think there's some hurdles for that type of a treatment, and really one of the only ways is limiting the inputs, being very frugal. I, myself, really believe, like, Lockridge Road and Heron Bay is probably a big source, and Telegraph Road, not as much our operations, because, you know, the speed, we're down, we're talking about 25-mile-an-hour roads, and one of the drones we're talking about. about non telegraph level traffic it's just a different beast for us and even the roads that we treat in that area a lot of them don't have roadside ditches they just drain off to the edge that that create that breaks that direct conduit to the lake right so you have to flow across property or across roadsides to then eventually make its way into the ditches or into the lake and that slows down that transfer of the chlorides to the lake so just simply because the

  16. and you basically pass the problem on to the next person. And so the DEQ was not in for that, you know, and in fact- I'm not in. Right, and if you know the Nature Center, they actually do chemical monitoring on the river as well, and so I think you might have a problem with them as well, because sometimes that creek isn't even flowing very much out of Forest Lake. So, you know, I think there's some hurdles for that type of a treatment, and really one of the only ways is limiting the inputs, being very frugal. I, myself, really believe, like, Lockridge Road and Heron Bay is probably a big source, and Telegraph Road, not as much our operations, because, you know, the speed, we're down, we're talking about 25-mile-an-hour roads, and one of the drones we're talking about. about non telegraph level traffic it's just a different beast for us and even the roads that we treat in that area a lot of them don't have roadside ditches they just drain off to the edge that that create that breaks that direct conduit to the lake right so you have to flow across property or across roadsides to then eventually make its way into the ditches or into the lake and that slows down that transfer of the chlorides to the lake so just simply because the water is not getting directly there to the lake as quickly so now you could I noticed in the data that you guys have had a couple good years more recently where the level has went down that's probably because we had pretty low-level winters right so I would probably this winter is a little different because we weren't even able to put salt down because it was too cold during a significant period but we used a lot of salt this year so like let's look we should see that correlation right between the level of your winter and the amount of salt that results the next year yeah yeah yeah so so it really comes down to that you know give and take between public safety and salt use right and where is the line and again I'm a little facetious when I say how many deaths are acceptable because you know typically that's none right but we all know the reality is certainly if you use more salt you're gonna have less issues on the roadways so in a freezing situation. So that's kind of the struggle. Certainly the township's not going to write a local neighborhood and say, hey, one or two more deaths a year is better. I wouldn't even take a position on that as the township because people would interpret that as, oh, you guys are

  17. slows down that transfer of the chlorides to the lake so just simply because the water is not getting directly there to the lake as quickly so now you could I noticed in the data that you guys have had a couple good years more recently where the level has went down that's probably because we had pretty low-level winters right so I would probably this winter is a little different because we weren't even able to put salt down because it was too cold during a significant period but we used a lot of salt this year so like let's look we should see that correlation right between the level of your winter and the amount of salt that results the next year yeah yeah yeah so so it really comes down to that you know give and take between public safety and salt use right and where is the line and again I'm a little facetious when I say how many deaths are acceptable because you know typically that's none right but we all know the reality is certainly if you use more salt you're gonna have less issues on the roadways so in a freezing situation. So that's kind of the struggle. Certainly the township's not going to write a local neighborhood and say, hey, one or two more deaths a year is better. I wouldn't even take a position on that as the township because people would interpret that as, oh, you guys are saying that, you know, I don't want to dictate a policy to a private company that then they're going to come back and say, hey, you're the reason we lost the job or that our customers aren't happy with the condition of the roadway. I'm not going to tell any private company to leave more snow on the road. Do you know, can I ask you questions? Excellent information. Appreciate that. Do you know any way to trap the storm sewer line before it goes to the lake? No, I'm not. I mean, there's probably a filtering substrate out there that you could use, but that like ineffective as far as cost versus ability to remove the pollutant. You know, it, you're talking like a reverse osmosis type system on a ditch, you know, and that even just economy of scale, that doesn't work. So it's really driving at the inputs, you know, and reducing those. So in the state, that's why the state, they came out with this law, it might've been two or three years ago, and it's been mired in the, you know, process of becoming a law. It's probably because they don't want to come out and say, you know, it's except they want to be, you know, regulate for the benefit of the environment, not to the.

  18. take a position on that as the township because people would interpret that as, oh, you guys are saying that, you know, I don't want to dictate a policy to a private company that then they're going to come back and say, hey, you're the reason we lost the job or that our customers aren't happy with the condition of the roadway. I'm not going to tell any private company to leave more snow on the road. Do you know, can I ask you questions? Excellent information. Appreciate that. Do you know any way to trap the storm sewer line before it goes to the lake? No, I'm not. I mean, there's probably a filtering substrate out there that you could use, but that like ineffective as far as cost versus ability to remove the pollutant. You know, it, you're talking like a reverse osmosis type system on a ditch, you know, and that even just economy of scale, that doesn't work. So it's really driving at the inputs, you know, and reducing those. So in the state, that's why the state, they came out with this law, it might've been two or three years ago, and it's been mired in the, you know, process of becoming a law. It's probably because they don't want to come out and say, you know, it's except they want to be, you know, regulate for the benefit of the environment, not to the. of the driving public so that's that's why they're probably having trouble we as a municipality again would like to see the private entities included in on the regulation not just us because we believe they're a major factor in this out there okay any other questions yeah no how does uh I know you're using brine how would brine affect because it washes away too doesn't it leaves a film a residue of some sort well so we do so we use brine first of all so that skips the step of turning the salt into solution additionally the salt can't just scatter off the roadway now usually that's at higher speeds but depending on where you put it on the roadway you could just fling it right off into the shoulder and that doesn't do any good right so that's what pre-wetting and using the brine does additionally we use a carbohydrate it's a it's a byproduct of sugar manufacturing and we the carbohydrate is sticky so it makes it stick to the pavement and it puts keeps the material where we want to put it so it's not just a brine we're making it is a brine plus an additive it's called thermal point but it's basically a sugar that sticks it down and yes if you get the mix wrong we got it

  19. of the driving public so that's that's why they're probably having trouble we as a municipality again would like to see the private entities included in on the regulation not just us because we believe they're a major factor in this out there okay any other questions yeah no how does uh I know you're using brine how would brine affect because it washes away too doesn't it leaves a film a residue of some sort well so we do so we use brine first of all so that skips the step of turning the salt into solution additionally the salt can't just scatter off the roadway now usually that's at higher speeds but depending on where you put it on the roadway you could just fling it right off into the shoulder and that doesn't do any good right so that's what pre-wetting and using the brine does additionally we use a carbohydrate it's a it's a byproduct of sugar manufacturing and we the carbohydrate is sticky so it makes it stick to the pavement and it puts keeps the material where we want to put it so it's not just a brine we're making it is a brine plus an additive it's called thermal point but it's basically a sugar that sticks it down and yes if you get the mix wrong we got it wrong on campus here two years ago and we were tracking the material in uh we're we've gotten it right now so it only takes one mistake and i you know i run building maintenance too so we had to clean it all up so you And then as that gets washed away, what's the effect on the environment from that material? The sugar's nothing. As a byproduct, nothing from the sugars. In fact, it doesn't promote any algae growth or any organic life like that, so it doesn't have an algae consideration, and it's not a chloride product. So it really helps the saw just be more effective and stick in place until the snow's melted, and then it's diluted at that point enough where it doesn't cause an environmental issue, or at least at this point. You had mentioned other contributors besides just the township, you know, the road commission, MDOT, whomever. If the township would take some proactive action, like we're talking about here, what percent of that chloride migration is really coming from others besides the... I'd have to look into it more. You know, it'd probably be a ratio. I'd probably go and look at the roadways and the percentage of the roadways that each entity takes care of,

  20. thermal point but it's basically a sugar that sticks it down and yes if you get the mix wrong we got it wrong on campus here two years ago and we were tracking the material in uh we're we've gotten it right now so it only takes one mistake and i you know i run building maintenance too so we had to clean it all up so you And then as that gets washed away, what's the effect on the environment from that material? The sugar's nothing. As a byproduct, nothing from the sugars. In fact, it doesn't promote any algae growth or any organic life like that, so it doesn't have an algae consideration, and it's not a chloride product. So it really helps the saw just be more effective and stick in place until the snow's melted, and then it's diluted at that point enough where it doesn't cause an environmental issue, or at least at this point. You had mentioned other contributors besides just the township, you know, the road commission, MDOT, whomever. If the township would take some proactive action, like we're talking about here, what percent of that chloride migration is really coming from others besides the... I'd have to look into it more. You know, it'd probably be a ratio. I'd probably go and look at the roadways and the percentage of the roadways that each entity takes care of, and I'd just break it up that way. I think it would be helpful because we need to understand what we can and what we can do and what we control, but also there's other parties involved. That helps us be able to raise those issues with the other parties, because if we did everything perfectly, but we're not a major percentage, we're still going to have the problem. Right, and it is dynamic because even if you think of Forest Lake, yeah, anything they do on the club side... Club Drive is going into that lake anything they do on the other side of the roadway is going down into the stream Which is after the outlet of the lake so even that becomes a dynamic thing, but I certainly I'll look at the watershed I'll look at the percentage makeup of the entities within it And that'll get I think it'd be helpful And if we as we enter as we interface with some other groups as part of what our assignment is that would be helpful agreed And I if you could do that in two weeks, that would be really all certainly. Yep. Yep I'll get that to the group. No, I say I would say that we're probably ahead of the curve on our use of chlorides and our use of alternative Materials than an M dot or RC OC just from there and they've got the bigger animal to take care of like they have hundreds of trucks versus our Twelve so it's just going to take them a little bit longer to get there But these these these are best industry practices as far as

  21. I'd probably go and look at the roadways and the percentage of the roadways that each entity takes care of, and I'd just break it up that way. I think it would be helpful because we need to understand what we can and what we can do and what we control, but also there's other parties involved. That helps us be able to raise those issues with the other parties, because if we did everything perfectly, but we're not a major percentage, we're still going to have the problem. Right, and it is dynamic because even if you think of Forest Lake, yeah, anything they do on the club side... Club Drive is going into that lake anything they do on the other side of the roadway is going down into the stream Which is after the outlet of the lake so even that becomes a dynamic thing, but I certainly I'll look at the watershed I'll look at the percentage makeup of the entities within it And that'll get I think it'd be helpful And if we as we enter as we interface with some other groups as part of what our assignment is that would be helpful agreed And I if you could do that in two weeks, that would be really all certainly. Yep. Yep I'll get that to the group. No, I say I would say that we're probably ahead of the curve on our use of chlorides and our use of alternative Materials than an M dot or RC OC just from there and they've got the bigger animal to take care of like they have hundreds of trucks versus our Twelve so it's just going to take them a little bit longer to get there But these these these are best industry practices as far as Managing the material and it's and it really comes down to cost over my career I've seen salt go from fifteen dollars a ton and now it's at sixty eight seventy bucks a ton So the economy of it is driving. I mean just like everything the economy drives everything that you know I'm an environmental person, but that doesn't drive what we do in this world the dollar does so All right, we appreciate you coming all right. Thank you. Thank you very much for the information We look forward to that follow-up report and thank you for bringing this to our attention Stay tuned I find it fascinating that when you build all these things the government comes in it tells you how you have to create a storm drain and a storm runoff but they don't accommodate for things like what people use on the road so when they when they develop that i mean when they're making a wetland approach because you you develop property in this in this township you have to go through a whole rigmarole and then now this just it just goes into some lake yeah i don't know i find that interesting yeah it's interesting that's something that you don't really think about unless well i and because we all we we talked about making sure the roads are hard

  22. But these these these are best industry practices as far as Managing the material and it's and it really comes down to cost over my career I've seen salt go from fifteen dollars a ton and now it's at sixty eight seventy bucks a ton So the economy of it is driving. I mean just like everything the economy drives everything that you know I'm an environmental person, but that doesn't drive what we do in this world the dollar does so All right, we appreciate you coming all right. Thank you. Thank you very much for the information We look forward to that follow-up report and thank you for bringing this to our attention Stay tuned I find it fascinating that when you build all these things the government comes in it tells you how you have to create a storm drain and a storm runoff but they don't accommodate for things like what people use on the road so when they when they develop that i mean when they're making a wetland approach because you you develop property in this in this township you have to go through a whole rigmarole and then now this just it just goes into some lake yeah i don't know i find that interesting yeah it's interesting that's something that you don't really think about unless well i and because we all we we talked about making sure the roads are hard yeah okay you know that's which i don't know how the hell they're going to do that but i i just find it it's interesting because we've had an issue in bloomfield crossing in the back of us where though they they the the township has been negligent about repairing some of the wetlands and so now they they found their way to go back there but um i think we have to stay on top of these things like that so the time to do is during the development stage when they developed all these community places and maybe they could they could have a runoff into a a field that doesn't care if it dies and they let it crust up yeah catch basin or something catch basin yeah okay let's come back to our or send it to troy either one easy let's come back to uh our schedule uh the next one is number four become a city oh i'm sorry i cannot come so so so the 13th but I can come on the I can do it on the 27th is that's okay we're not gonna we're not gonna we're not here so 610 610 yeah okay okay so that's you'll be in at 610 all right I'm involved in number four and five yeah number four is

  23. really think about unless well i and because we all we we talked about making sure the roads are hard yeah okay you know that's which i don't know how the hell they're going to do that but i i just find it it's interesting because we've had an issue in bloomfield crossing in the back of us where though they they the the township has been negligent about repairing some of the wetlands and so now they they found their way to go back there but um i think we have to stay on top of these things like that so the time to do is during the development stage when they developed all these community places and maybe they could they could have a runoff into a a field that doesn't care if it dies and they let it crust up yeah catch basin or something catch basin yeah okay let's come back to our or send it to troy either one easy let's come back to uh our schedule uh the next one is number four become a city oh i'm sorry i cannot come so so so the 13th but I can come on the I can do it on the 27th is that's okay we're not gonna we're not gonna we're not here so 610 610 yeah okay okay so that's you'll be in at 610 all right I'm involved in number four and five yeah number four is should the township consider or make a recommendation regarding whether it becomes a city Jeff and I met some time ago and as I reported when we first reported Jeff was talking with township trustees because we were concerned about possible scope creep and are we getting beyond ahead of our skis to put it another way by considering that topic and so yes that impacts the roads but it impacts more yes and so do the trustees want us to take that on and I haven't heard I know Jeff was scheduling meetings and I'm not sure if he's been able to complete those meetings so I don't have anything more to add and so I talked to Jeff yesterday and I think you guys could probably report on the 29th I think he's come to a point in two weeks that could be okay that report so we could put you know what you know I'll reach out to Jeff between now and then yeah did you guys do the 29th because I believe it's going to be a fairly short report from talking to Jeff that's my sense we wanted

  24. be in at 610 all right I'm involved in number four and five yeah number four is should the township consider or make a recommendation regarding whether it becomes a city Jeff and I met some time ago and as I reported when we first reported Jeff was talking with township trustees because we were concerned about possible scope creep and are we getting beyond ahead of our skis to put it another way by considering that topic and so yes that impacts the roads but it impacts more yes and so do the trustees want us to take that on and I haven't heard I know Jeff was scheduling meetings and I'm not sure if he's been able to complete those meetings so I don't have anything more to add and so I talked to Jeff yesterday and I think you guys could probably report on the 29th I think he's come to a point in two weeks that could be okay that report so we could put you know what you know I'll reach out to Jeff between now and then yeah did you guys do the 29th because I believe it's going to be a fairly short report from talking to Jeff that's my sense we wanted that's what that's what I'm the one who brought that question so it's I expect that so anyway so that's under the number five moving to number five yes is reported the first time Mike and I talked I'm not sure there's been any need you know there's anything more to add and so I think we're ready to finalize and if you want to fit us into the 13th or yes so it's like you're doing to a to a meeting so 13th are you good Mike yeah absolutely okay to go okay that's good okay and now I'll reach out to you but yeah yeah okay and then that gets us to if you need I can do mine on the 29th too oh you can yeah and they're kind of related well here's my concern on the 29th of April we've got the Road Commission oh I see and that to me will be the bulk of the meeting so what I was trying to do is slot in something would be fairly briefly okay yeah well let me know if you want to we'll keep we'll keep it scheduled for the 10th okay what I'd like to do is we go through this you look at the calendar I'd like to see our reports completed by the 10th of June so then on the 24th of June we can then talk

  25. that's what that's what I'm the one who brought that question so it's I expect that so anyway so that's under the number five moving to number five yes is reported the first time Mike and I talked I'm not sure there's been any need you know there's anything more to add and so I think we're ready to finalize and if you want to fit us into the 13th or yes so it's like you're doing to a to a meeting so 13th are you good Mike yeah absolutely okay to go okay that's good okay and now I'll reach out to you but yeah yeah okay and then that gets us to if you need I can do mine on the 29th too oh you can yeah and they're kind of related well here's my concern on the 29th of April we've got the Road Commission oh I see and that to me will be the bulk of the meeting so what I was trying to do is slot in something would be fairly briefly okay yeah well let me know if you want to we'll keep we'll keep it scheduled for the 10th okay what I'd like to do is we go through this you look at the calendar I'd like to see our reports completed by the 10th of June so then on the 24th of June we can then talk about we have all the information from the subcommittees and we start to formulate what our reports going to look like and use all that information so that that's kind of where I'm trying because I think once we get into July now we're going to start to order. it. the first part of July it's gonna start to be hard you know we're gonna start losing momentum and time okay so the idea would be on 624 there with that meeting would strictly be to bring all the subcommittee information together and start drafting up an outline or a report that could be written and then we could be finishing up you know after the July 4th so that would say that on number six the other funding sources I think they're getting pretty close to ready to go and we could do that well let me go back to number seven first how long how big complicated sevens I finally heard back from Senator Jeremy Moss office and he was recommended reaching out to the Michigan Township Association so I did that haven't heard back from them but I assume I don't need more than two weeks so I could either do the 29th or the 13th okay so let's let's say they both have two of them on it so far so we got 13 we got two let's let's do it the

  26. reports completed by the 10th of June so then on the 24th of June we can then talk about we have all the information from the subcommittees and we start to formulate what our reports going to look like and use all that information so that that's kind of where I'm trying because I think once we get into July now we're going to start to order. it. the first part of July it's gonna start to be hard you know we're gonna start losing momentum and time okay so the idea would be on 624 there with that meeting would strictly be to bring all the subcommittee information together and start drafting up an outline or a report that could be written and then we could be finishing up you know after the July 4th so that would say that on number six the other funding sources I think they're getting pretty close to ready to go and we could do that well let me go back to number seven first how long how big complicated sevens I finally heard back from Senator Jeremy Moss office and he was recommended reaching out to the Michigan Township Association so I did that haven't heard back from them but I assume I don't need more than two weeks so I could either do the 29th or the 13th okay so let's let's say they both have two of them on it so far so we got 13 we got two let's let's do it the the 10th I mean okay just do it because I'm trying to balance June 10th yeah June 10th Jim Jim John who did you reach out to the MTA do you recall just the general questions okay because we have Judy Allen's contact okay and so sue we'll give it to you all right she'll get right back to you okay cool I think on number six that's a straightforward report So could we do that one on the 13th? You know, Mindy had emailed me about if she and Fred could get on our agenda at the next meeting to do their report. Okay. So because we got the road commission, let's say it's the 13th. All right. So you'll make that change to her? Word number four, do you want us to move to some other, you know, although it's quick. Well, yeah, we could flip it. Yeah. So you guys do the 13th and she would do the 429th. I have a comment. You know, I read the road commission, Gary's write-up, what he's going to report. It doesn't look like it is very voluminous. It's not going to take that long.

  27. both have two of them on it so far so we got 13 we got two let's let's do it the the 10th I mean okay just do it because I'm trying to balance June 10th yeah June 10th Jim Jim John who did you reach out to the MTA do you recall just the general questions okay because we have Judy Allen's contact okay and so sue we'll give it to you all right she'll get right back to you okay cool I think on number six that's a straightforward report So could we do that one on the 13th? You know, Mindy had emailed me about if she and Fred could get on our agenda at the next meeting to do their report. Okay. So because we got the road commission, let's say it's the 13th. All right. So you'll make that change to her? Word number four, do you want us to move to some other, you know, although it's quick. Well, yeah, we could flip it. Yeah. So you guys do the 13th and she would do the 429th. I have a comment. You know, I read the road commission, Gary's write-up, what he's going to report. It doesn't look like it is very voluminous. It's not going to take that long. My anticipation there should be a bunch of questions from us. Oh, okay. That's my anticipation. There are comments in that slide presentation that need amplification and understanding. Because we really are in danger. When we're doing all these things in June, we're in danger of pushing up against your thing. So I don't know if it would be sacrilege if the next meeting, even though when the commission is going to be here, if we can extend the meeting another half an hour, we could, two or three of us can make a presentation of just what we have. And then people can criticize it or comment on it. Okay. And so I think, because I think it's really important that... to your point when you initially we have to go get this over with because I feel like we're spinning our wheels that's what consensus does everyone willing to meet an extra half hour on the 29th I'm not sure but I think number four is going to be quick I think you do okay well Jeff yes I think there's going to be I think I know the answer yes so that's going to take two minutes well then why don't we just back to your point let's let's leave you on the

  28. It's not going to take that long. My anticipation there should be a bunch of questions from us. Oh, okay. That's my anticipation. There are comments in that slide presentation that need amplification and understanding. Because we really are in danger. When we're doing all these things in June, we're in danger of pushing up against your thing. So I don't know if it would be sacrilege if the next meeting, even though when the commission is going to be here, if we can extend the meeting another half an hour, we could, two or three of us can make a presentation of just what we have. And then people can criticize it or comment on it. Okay. And so I think, because I think it's really important that... to your point when you initially we have to go get this over with because I feel like we're spinning our wheels that's what consensus does everyone willing to meet an extra half hour on the 29th I'm not sure but I think number four is going to be quick I think you do okay well Jeff yes I think there's going to be I think I know the answer yes so that's going to take two minutes well then why don't we just back to your point let's let's leave you on the 29th let's let's is it oh is everybody in agreement or consensus that we could extend the meeting on the 29th to pick up the momentum here to the for a half hour it's a but you have a objection to that okay start over so on our 29 Susan we'll go from 430 what month June April April April okay we'll go we'll go from 430 to six so we could plow through a lot of them at that point yes and we'll have we'll kind of be in the mode to kind of listen to so if we do that we'll have the road commission which is number two on the 29th we'll do number four on the 29th and we'll do number five on the 29th and number three we could do on the 29th okay we could have a very full that would be well that I think really mine will take two minutes okay and that would be excellent because that's what we need to start movement And then people can come, you know, we can kind of, the mosaic will begin to take form at that point in time. Jeff, do you have this all written down? Yes, I'm going to summarize it right now. Thank you. Okay. Before we do that, we got four of them on the 29th. Yeah.

  29. well then why don't we just back to your point let's let's leave you on the 29th let's let's is it oh is everybody in agreement or consensus that we could extend the meeting on the 29th to pick up the momentum here to the for a half hour it's a but you have a objection to that okay start over so on our 29 Susan we'll go from 430 what month June April April April okay we'll go we'll go from 430 to six so we could plow through a lot of them at that point yes and we'll have we'll kind of be in the mode to kind of listen to so if we do that we'll have the road commission which is number two on the 29th we'll do number four on the 29th and we'll do number five on the 29th and number three we could do on the 29th okay we could have a very full that would be well that I think really mine will take two minutes okay and that would be excellent because that's what we need to start movement And then people can come, you know, we can kind of, the mosaic will begin to take form at that point in time. Jeff, do you have this all written down? Yes, I'm going to summarize it right now. Thank you. Okay. Before we do that, we got four of them on the 29th. Yeah. Move the number seven from June 10 to May 13th and get it done in those two days. That's even better. Yeah, thank you. Okay. Everybody keep score and make sure I report to Susan. What we have decided, we're looking for everybody's consensus here, is number one is the 13th, number two the 29th of April, number three the 29th of April, number four the 29th of April, number five, we said the 29th, and then number seven on the 13th of May. So if we could keep that schedule and we could see, we could be concluded in the month of May with the reports. And that gives us two meetings to kind of come together before, you know, by mid-June, our report. Okay. Susan, do you know those? So everybody that's in those, did you get that? No, because you skipped six. Oh. Six is 429. So we're going to do four of them on 429? Yeah, by extending the meeting. Okay. It's a couple of them are going to be rather, yes. Two, three, four, five, and six. Two, three, four, five, and six. Five and six are all.

  30. Move the number seven from June 10 to May 13th and get it done in those two days. That's even better. Yeah, thank you. Okay. Everybody keep score and make sure I report to Susan. What we have decided, we're looking for everybody's consensus here, is number one is the 13th, number two the 29th of April, number three the 29th of April, number four the 29th of April, number five, we said the 29th, and then number seven on the 13th of May. So if we could keep that schedule and we could see, we could be concluded in the month of May with the reports. And that gives us two meetings to kind of come together before, you know, by mid-June, our report. Okay. Susan, do you know those? So everybody that's in those, did you get that? No, because you skipped six. Oh. Six is 429. So we're going to do four of them on 429? Yeah, by extending the meeting. Okay. It's a couple of them are going to be rather, yes. Two, three, four, five, and six. Two, three, four, five, and six. Five and six are all. the 29th? Yep. So then what's going on the 13th then? Number seven. Number seven. And then if we have, you know, if we get jammed on the 29th, we're going to let one fall over. So the goal would be then on that schedule is when we get, then we have two meetings in June to kind of wrap up our report. Exactly. So that's the big picture. That sounds good. Okay. I want to be here. Oh, April? You're not going to be here for the fun part. It's the most important. I'm having somebody stand in for me and now they're having to work extra. So it's up to you guys if you want to keep that meeting or you want to move it to May 13th and have that one be the extra half an hour. That'd be fine with me. Yeah, we can do that. So why don't we just flip-flop and make all of them two, three, four, five, and six on May 19th. May 13th. May 13th. May 13th. May 13th. And then on, so then we'll just be. And then one and seven can be on the 29th? Yes. And two is on the 29th because that's the main speaker. I thought two was going. No, that's the road commission. Yes. Yeah, that's the 29th. So one, two, and seven?

  31. the 29th? Yep. So then what's going on the 13th then? Number seven. Number seven. And then if we have, you know, if we get jammed on the 29th, we're going to let one fall over. So the goal would be then on that schedule is when we get, then we have two meetings in June to kind of wrap up our report. Exactly. So that's the big picture. That sounds good. Okay. I want to be here. Oh, April? You're not going to be here for the fun part. It's the most important. I'm having somebody stand in for me and now they're having to work extra. So it's up to you guys if you want to keep that meeting or you want to move it to May 13th and have that one be the extra half an hour. That'd be fine with me. Yeah, we can do that. So why don't we just flip-flop and make all of them two, three, four, five, and six on May 19th. May 13th. May 13th. May 13th. May 13th. And then on, so then we'll just be. And then one and seven can be on the 29th? Yes. And two is on the 29th because that's the main speaker. I thought two was going. No, that's the road commission. Yes. Yeah, that's the 29th. So one, two, and seven? Yes. Yeah. Okay. I know that they switched on us. So they're saying now 429 is one, two. and seven and 13th is three four five six yeah please send that out I can't be there may 13 oh wait a minute okay well I you know what I'll just send it to everybody mine is pretty self-explanatory well once you do it on the 29th all right I'll do it on the 29th yeah I'll be ready in two number three no he said he wasn't well it's it would be it would become it would be it wouldn't be it wouldn't be as polished okay three becomes the 29th okay all right two has

  32. Yes. Yeah, that's the 29th. So one, two, and seven? Yes. Yeah. Okay. I know that they switched on us. So they're saying now 429 is one, two. and seven and 13th is three four five six yeah please send that out I can't be there may 13 oh wait a minute okay well I you know what I'll just send it to everybody mine is pretty self-explanatory well once you do it on the 29th all right I'll do it on the 29th yeah I'll be ready in two number three no he said he wasn't well it's it would be it would become it would be it wouldn't be it wouldn't be as polished okay three becomes the 29th okay all right two has to be on the 29th that's the road commission that's fine that's good that's where I started we should meet for you you We should meet for one week straight. I mean, I got it. I mean, I got it. You and I can just get together. Can't do anything in the garden. Okay. That was a bouncing ball, but I think as long as Susan. I can't wait to see the memo. I thought it was going to be straightforward, but hey, we got it. Okay. So that takes care of moving forward with the idea, and then June will be the time we really try to bring stuff to a conclusion. So if you need to report where we are and what we're doing, that's kind of our big-picture plan. Could our reports be a PowerPoint or just discussion on these dates? I think PowerPoints would be preferred. That's what I figured. We need to have something to work with. Yep. That would be ideal.

  33. wouldn't be as polished okay three becomes the 29th okay all right two has to be on the 29th that's the road commission that's fine that's good that's where I started we should meet for you you We should meet for one week straight. I mean, I got it. I mean, I got it. You and I can just get together. Can't do anything in the garden. Okay. That was a bouncing ball, but I think as long as Susan. I can't wait to see the memo. I thought it was going to be straightforward, but hey, we got it. Okay. So that takes care of moving forward with the idea, and then June will be the time we really try to bring stuff to a conclusion. So if you need to report where we are and what we're doing, that's kind of our big-picture plan. Could our reports be a PowerPoint or just discussion on these dates? I think PowerPoints would be preferred. That's what I figured. We need to have something to work with. Yep. That would be ideal. Okay. And if you're not a PowerPoint person, maybe some outline. I am. So one way or the other. Some kind of documentation would be good. And then we work on the report, and we'll do extend the meeting on the 13th for a half hour. So that kind of doesn't catch up. Okay. That takes care of the phase two. The next item on the agenda, or items not on the agenda, or anybody would like to bring up for discussion? I just have a question. In our particular neighborhood, the roads are really deteriorated from the winter, a number of them. And we're wondering when's the sweeping going to occur? Do we wait until the water? goes away i know it's on the schedule we'll have to get back to you all right just just curious because some some people are are you know seeing it as as being negligence and i said well i don't know that they can do it when it's wet you know i i've had a good response from noah every time i've called so you know that that might be a quicker way of you to call tomorrow morning and find out they should have given me his card normally they give us their card we'll ask for

  34. That would be ideal. Okay. And if you're not a PowerPoint person, maybe some outline. I am. So one way or the other. Some kind of documentation would be good. And then we work on the report, and we'll do extend the meeting on the 13th for a half hour. So that kind of doesn't catch up. Okay. That takes care of the phase two. The next item on the agenda, or items not on the agenda, or anybody would like to bring up for discussion? I just have a question. In our particular neighborhood, the roads are really deteriorated from the winter, a number of them. And we're wondering when's the sweeping going to occur? Do we wait until the water? goes away i know it's on the schedule we'll have to get back to you all right just just curious because some some people are are you know seeing it as as being negligence and i said well i don't know that they can do it when it's wet you know i i've had a good response from noah every time i've called so you know that that might be a quicker way of you to call tomorrow morning and find out they should have given me his card normally they give us their card we'll ask for you gary and we'll send you a note thank you susan okay uh can i can i ask just to catch up sure you know i'm back after my winter break uh so is the deer committee has been concluded or it's still ongoing it's excellent question and maybe mike can give us the uh the details on that well i think we're all getting to the point where we've got to come up with some suggestions here and report back to the trustees and then once we've done that we'll have to decide where to go after that it may be quarterly meetings you know it could be and we'll figure that out but when we started this committee what was most important is that we learn why and how we're in the situation we're in and i think we've all discovered that and what's helped i think us communicate with our residents is we get regular emails about the roads especially this time of year, and we're referring them now to the road advisory committee website so they can see and look at our meetings and get a better understanding. This has been a great communication committee to educate the residents why we're in this role.

  35. find out they should have given me his card normally they give us their card we'll ask for you gary and we'll send you a note thank you susan okay uh can i can i ask just to catch up sure you know i'm back after my winter break uh so is the deer committee has been concluded or it's still ongoing it's excellent question and maybe mike can give us the uh the details on that well i think we're all getting to the point where we've got to come up with some suggestions here and report back to the trustees and then once we've done that we'll have to decide where to go after that it may be quarterly meetings you know it could be and we'll figure that out but when we started this committee what was most important is that we learn why and how we're in the situation we're in and i think we've all discovered that and what's helped i think us communicate with our residents is we get regular emails about the roads especially this time of year, and we're referring them now to the road advisory committee website so they can see and look at our meetings and get a better understanding. This has been a great communication committee to educate the residents why we're in this role. The important thing is, and I think we're getting to it, with these answers that we're going to come together and then report back to the trustees. Yeah, the deer thing, we're going through a process, and then we have to, like, go through it in a systematic manner, so we just don't want to spring something on one, and we want to take advantage of what happened in Southfield and Farmington, Farmington Hills, and I'm going to meet with, what is his name? Brian. Brian. And we're just going to talk over, talk through what they went through, but, you know, we were hung up on some things that maybe aren't so important, but if we hire, like, U of M to come in and help us manage the system, that's going to take money. But then again, it'll be better to go out to the public and say, this is the people who are telling us them. But there are things that we can do, not saying anything about any of that stuff that we can, like feeding the deer and things like that, that we can go through and we can see the impact of that with other communities, and then we can recommend that we make a resolution, or the city, the township makes a resolution, that's going to be the city if we can see.

  36. This has been a great communication committee to educate the residents why we're in this role. The important thing is, and I think we're getting to it, with these answers that we're going to come together and then report back to the trustees. Yeah, the deer thing, we're going through a process, and then we have to, like, go through it in a systematic manner, so we just don't want to spring something on one, and we want to take advantage of what happened in Southfield and Farmington, Farmington Hills, and I'm going to meet with, what is his name? Brian. Brian. And we're just going to talk over, talk through what they went through, but, you know, we were hung up on some things that maybe aren't so important, but if we hire, like, U of M to come in and help us manage the system, that's going to take money. But then again, it'll be better to go out to the public and say, this is the people who are telling us them. But there are things that we can do, not saying anything about any of that stuff that we can, like feeding the deer and things like that, that we can go through and we can see the impact of that with other communities, and then we can recommend that we make a resolution, or the city, the township makes a resolution, that's going to be the city if we can see. But you're not supposed to feed the deer and there's a problem with that and you could get in a lot of, as my mother would say, you can get in a lot of trouble if you do that. So there are some things that we can do. We still have a problem regardless of, you all saw the curves and the graphs and things like that. We just need to document what we're doing and then so we can make recommendations so that if there is some funding need that we can get it. Have you been meeting with the two people who have been appointed with this at all or is there any activity? Yeah, we've been communicating by emails, but we haven't had a reason to have a meeting so to speak. And then after we, at this point in time we'll probably have a meeting and kind of go through kind of what we want to do to show our documentation stream. Because we're not going to come out and just say we're going to do this, this, and this. Do you anticipate when you'd be ready to come back to this committee? After June or what? Well, I think by June, you know, we're all Americans. We can get it done by then. Okay, I like it. Well, we'll see.

  37. But you're not supposed to feed the deer and there's a problem with that and you could get in a lot of, as my mother would say, you can get in a lot of trouble if you do that. So there are some things that we can do. We still have a problem regardless of, you all saw the curves and the graphs and things like that. We just need to document what we're doing and then so we can make recommendations so that if there is some funding need that we can get it. Have you been meeting with the two people who have been appointed with this at all or is there any activity? Yeah, we've been communicating by emails, but we haven't had a reason to have a meeting so to speak. And then after we, at this point in time we'll probably have a meeting and kind of go through kind of what we want to do to show our documentation stream. Because we're not going to come out and just say we're going to do this, this, and this. Do you anticipate when you'd be ready to come back to this committee? After June or what? Well, I think by June, you know, we're all Americans. We can get it done by then. Okay, I like it. Well, we'll see. The other thing, I'm really interested to see what Ryan reports of what happened. Okay. It's, it's, it's amazing. I mean, he has it down to how many pounds of venison they made. I'm glad you're taking the point on this. So, well, it just sounded. Well, it just sounded. Well, it just sounded. It. Okay. intellectually I thought it would be good I had to do it the right way I do have one point and this is more of a heads up for when we hear from the Road Commission but there's recent legislation that was proposed called the Michigan Home Program and it's a multi-bill package that has what I believe I'm trying to keep an open mind but a profound impact on the township and and our roads and what this says is that this which take local control of zoning away from local municipalities and have one-size-fits-all for the state and and it would allow minimum lot size to be up 1,500 square feet and I mean it would change everything it would allow duplexes automatically by as a matter of right

  38. Well, we'll see. The other thing, I'm really interested to see what Ryan reports of what happened. Okay. It's, it's, it's amazing. I mean, he has it down to how many pounds of venison they made. I'm glad you're taking the point on this. So, well, it just sounded. Well, it just sounded. Well, it just sounded. It. Okay. intellectually I thought it would be good I had to do it the right way I do have one point and this is more of a heads up for when we hear from the Road Commission but there's recent legislation that was proposed called the Michigan Home Program and it's a multi-bill package that has what I believe I'm trying to keep an open mind but a profound impact on the township and and our roads and what this says is that this which take local control of zoning away from local municipalities and have one-size-fits-all for the state and and it would allow minimum lot size to be up 1,500 square feet and I mean it would change everything it would allow duplexes automatically by as a matter of right and it would or would not it would oh and it would allow excessive accessory dwelling units so that's that's code for mother-in-law it's an exterior building for a mother-in-law or or a wood chip well but or you know it's it can be a dwelling unit so they can have 1,500 square foot units almost a tiny home and and then in addition an accessory dwelling unit and their one vehicle on the lot. And so if there's multiple adults, teens or adults living there, and they're only required to have one space for the vehicle, so then the vehicles, other vehicles, are going to be on the roads. And our roads are designed, they're basically two-lane roads. I mean, in my subdivision, you pass each other, but we slow down because the roads are narrow. I mean, that's not a complaint, but that's the way it is. So if we have cars parking on the roads, it's going to really change things in a radical way. There are other elements, and it seems like they're favoring the developers.

  39. change everything it would allow duplexes automatically by as a matter of right and it would or would not it would oh and it would allow excessive accessory dwelling units so that's that's code for mother-in-law it's an exterior building for a mother-in-law or or a wood chip well but or you know it's it can be a dwelling unit so they can have 1,500 square foot units almost a tiny home and and then in addition an accessory dwelling unit and their one vehicle on the lot. And so if there's multiple adults, teens or adults living there, and they're only required to have one space for the vehicle, so then the vehicles, other vehicles, are going to be on the roads. And our roads are designed, they're basically two-lane roads. I mean, in my subdivision, you pass each other, but we slow down because the roads are narrow. I mean, that's not a complaint, but that's the way it is. So if we have cars parking on the roads, it's going to really change things in a radical way. There are other elements, and it seems like they're favoring the developers. And so the developer put something on the table that township has 60 days to approve or deny or comment on, which could be different from what we do here in the township. So there's a lot of other elements. So I want to ask, this is just as a heads up, I want to ask the Road Commission if they've looked at that and have it, you know, have any thoughts on whether this could or would have an impact on the existing roads, including neighborhood roads. Right. So I sent something to Mike and Susan. a day or so ago and I just I saw that is this past no it's it's recently proposed it's recently proposed recently proposed because that would like you that would just mess up our whole subdivision it would mess up your whole subdivision basically we could just take our master plan and throw it out there yeah they're overtaking all of our zoning and we've been pushing back for months now and many of other communities have as well some other organizations so there's a likelihood it wouldn't get passed well we don't know we we we don't think so

  40. There are other elements, and it seems like they're favoring the developers. And so the developer put something on the table that township has 60 days to approve or deny or comment on, which could be different from what we do here in the township. So there's a lot of other elements. So I want to ask, this is just as a heads up, I want to ask the Road Commission if they've looked at that and have it, you know, have any thoughts on whether this could or would have an impact on the existing roads, including neighborhood roads. Right. So I sent something to Mike and Susan. a day or so ago and I just I saw that is this past no it's it's recently proposed it's recently proposed recently proposed because that would like you that would just mess up our whole subdivision it would mess up your whole subdivision basically we could just take our master plan and throw it out there yeah they're overtaking all of our zoning and we've been pushing back for months now and many of other communities have as well some other organizations so there's a likelihood it wouldn't get passed well we don't know we we we don't think so right now who thinks it's a good idea well I I I can't speak for them but there was enough momentum there for a while that it didn't it was looking dim for us but good for the people that proposed these bills but now I think it's backed off and hopefully they're listening you know this is that's not just the duplexes it's called small lots so right now our lots have to be when you build a house let's say it's eight but for me 18,000 square feet something like that to 22,000 they're proposing that they can have lots as small as 1,500 square feet and they're also taking over our parking requirements where we require two or two and a half spots they they only would require one now that you're not allowed to park in the street in our subdivision yeah yeah you're not even supposed to have your car outside right more than over so so now there are probably areas in the state which could be rural areas that need to be developed where this may be a good idea to give it a test but to come into a mature development or community like ourselves or our neighbors any of our neighbors you pick it would be what was

  41. likelihood it wouldn't get passed well we don't know we we we don't think so right now who thinks it's a good idea well I I I can't speak for them but there was enough momentum there for a while that it didn't it was looking dim for us but good for the people that proposed these bills but now I think it's backed off and hopefully they're listening you know this is that's not just the duplexes it's called small lots so right now our lots have to be when you build a house let's say it's eight but for me 18,000 square feet something like that to 22,000 they're proposing that they can have lots as small as 1,500 square feet and they're also taking over our parking requirements where we require two or two and a half spots they they only would require one now that you're not allowed to park in the street in our subdivision yeah yeah you're not even supposed to have your car outside right more than over so so now there are probably areas in the state which could be rural areas that need to be developed where this may be a good idea to give it a test but to come into a mature development or community like ourselves or our neighbors any of our neighbors you pick it would be what was the name of this again what was it it's called the Michigan home program okay and the idea was to keep the cost of owning a home down because you're buying a small would be sold by a double white that would keep the cost of that's the other thing I don't know your but that a typical lot in in Bloomfield Township would could be divided into ten right take by your life by your home strip your take your house down and then put ten or twelve I could divide my house too right right but they take ten or twelve make ten or twelve structures structures on that lot the same lot where you live right now it makes it you know I mean it's interesting yeah so so anyway I've looked I came across that I'm across that it's a good one I read I mean so so um so I came across that and I is the road group I think this is something that I'm like I want to explore we've been pushing back on this for months and we've been in front of our legislators and they know and and we've asked a couple of them to come speak to us about it that are co-sponsors to these bills and we haven't had a RSVP yet

  42. ourselves or our neighbors any of our neighbors you pick it would be what was the name of this again what was it it's called the Michigan home program okay and the idea was to keep the cost of owning a home down because you're buying a small would be sold by a double white that would keep the cost of that's the other thing I don't know your but that a typical lot in in Bloomfield Township would could be divided into ten right take by your life by your home strip your take your house down and then put ten or twelve I could divide my house too right right but they take ten or twelve make ten or twelve structures structures on that lot the same lot where you live right now it makes it you know I mean it's interesting yeah so so anyway I've looked I came across that I'm across that it's a good one I read I mean so so um so I came across that and I is the road group I think this is something that I'm like I want to explore we've been pushing back on this for months and we've been in front of our legislators and they know and and we've asked a couple of them to come speak to us about it that are co-sponsors to these bills and we haven't had a RSVP yet So I'm trying to keep an open mind, but I'm also concerned, and I think it impacts the roads. And so I think that's something that, so I don't know who's going to talk to our presenter, but to be fair, a heads up. And so then we're going to get an answer if they know in advance. Yeah, we'll get a heads up that that question's going to be on the table. So I'm ready for bear. We all should be. I'm surprised they don't leave that to the local units of government the way it is now, and why they decide to have to come in with it. Because different communities can have different approaches. That's right. That's right. And, you know, you take something like this idea to a rural community that needs to be developed, and give it an opportunity to test it and see how it goes. That's it. Okay. So anyway, I'm just, that's a heads up. Right. Thank you. Interesting. Interesting. Wow. I read. I read. That's good. Okay. Okay. These are good conversations. Any other items? Anybody want to raise? Re-adjourn? All right. I move to adjourn. We're adjourned. Support. All those in favor, please say aye. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.