the-compact
Road Advisory Committee Thursday, November 13, 2025 · 70 min

Bloomfield Township Road Advisory Committee Meeting on November 12, 2025

Summary

The city council discussed financial planning, infrastructure implications, and potential consequences of incorporating as a city, including funding and budgeting for roads and addressing local issues.

  • Council discussed potential costs and implications of converting Hill Township to a city.
  • Consulting firm Plant Moran may be able to assess the pros and cons of Hill Township becoming a city.
  • City council discussed millage rates and road funding, considering factors like property values and municipal services.
  • Deer-related car accidents in the area have increased, with 93 incidents year-to-date, mostly due to rut season.
  • Council discussed deer-related issues and potential solutions, including education and awareness campaigns.

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Transcript

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  1. Point of order here, what I'm going to do, I think, is divide this, we have one agenda here, but I want to divide it into two separate meetings, call to order, do the meeting, you know, whatever it is, and then close that, adjourn, and then open the Deer Advisory. I want to keep them separate, okay, so one thing doesn't flow into the other. So we'll open up the Road Advisory Committee. How are you? Good, how are you? Come on up, we have a seat for you right over here. Oh, come on up, up here. Nice to see you. Okay. Hello. How do you do that, I'm Josh. I'm sorry to interrupt. Oh, no. Hi, I'm Jeff. Nice to meet you. All right. Sorry, sorry. The Road Advisory Committee opened the meeting of November 12th. We have no minutes. The minutes weren't done. We're going to postpone approving the minutes from our last meeting. We're going to approve those minutes in the next meeting. Okay. So we don't have those. So we do have a quorum. We have a full slate here. So what we want to do, what we, what the purpose of today's meeting is to now start, we've got all the information from the presentation, from the fact finding. We've got all that done. That phase is done. Phase two now is to digest that information and find out what we can expect from the things that we found out, ramifications of certain. choices perhaps financial stuff etc so the first person I think the first is gonna get some answers of the question posed last week Jason Tice thanks for joining us I think what we had certain I have it here someplace I have mine oh okay we had certain questions we wanted to ask and do you have a you want to just present you have something you want to present to us or should we just ask question what do you want to do I don't have anything to present so I was given a copy of some questions but okay so why don't we start there then someone kind of vague so I'm not quite sure exactly so Jason just we have a couple new members we just introduce yourself in your role here please finance director for the township handle all the accounting and and inflow of money outflow and been here 18 years you did a great presentation right in the beginning we first started

  2. all the information from the presentation, from the fact finding. We've got all that done. That phase is done. Phase two now is to digest that information and find out what we can expect from the things that we found out, ramifications of certain. choices perhaps financial stuff etc so the first person I think the first is gonna get some answers of the question posed last week Jason Tice thanks for joining us I think what we had certain I have it here someplace I have mine oh okay we had certain questions we wanted to ask and do you have a you want to just present you have something you want to present to us or should we just ask question what do you want to do I don't have anything to present so I was given a copy of some questions but okay so why don't we start there then someone kind of vague so I'm not quite sure exactly so Jason just we have a couple new members we just introduce yourself in your role here please finance director for the township handle all the accounting and and inflow of money outflow and been here 18 years you did a great presentation right in the beginning we first started this and some good information out of that that was great good but now that we know some things and from your stuff others we need to we'd like to know perhaps from the from someone who knows what they're doing some of the ramifications or some of the some of the things that would happen what's gonna what's the next step in financials and we you've got the questions you want to just go start with those and then maybe we'll have more yeah so There was a question about what would be the consequences if the township were to incorporate as a city. And I guess my first thought when I read that was I won't be able to answer all of them. I think a good portion of those should be directed to an attorney because there's all sorts of legal consequences. Also, maybe our director of public works from the standpoint of how that would affect the road department, its organization structure, whether we even have the capacity to house those trucks and all the excess of that.

  3. 18 years you did a great presentation right in the beginning we first started this and some good information out of that that was great good but now that we know some things and from your stuff others we need to we'd like to know perhaps from the from someone who knows what they're doing some of the ramifications or some of the some of the things that would happen what's gonna what's the next step in financials and we you've got the questions you want to just go start with those and then maybe we'll have more yeah so There was a question about what would be the consequences if the township were to incorporate as a city. And I guess my first thought when I read that was I won't be able to answer all of them. I think a good portion of those should be directed to an attorney because there's all sorts of legal consequences. Also, maybe our director of public works from the standpoint of how that would affect the road department, its organization structure, whether we even have the capacity to house those trucks and all the excess of that. So, but mainly from a financial standpoint, incorporating as a city, we then are taking on all of the responsibilities and infrastructure that we currently don't have to do, have to take on. So my concern there is I have yet to find or be aware of a city, a non-township that has enough funding, you know, getting the PA $51 and other sources. I never am talking to a peer or another finance person at another community, and they say, oh, this is great having our own roads, and we have enough funding to get them. So as you're going through this committee and evaluating things, I think that's important to reflect back on is you want to solve a problem, and that problem is we don't have enough funding and sources and options to address the local roads here,

  4. Also, maybe our director of public works from the standpoint of how that would affect the road department, its organization structure, whether we even have the capacity to house those trucks and all the excess of that. So, but mainly from a financial standpoint, incorporating as a city, we then are taking on all of the responsibilities and infrastructure that we currently don't have to do, have to take on. So my concern there is I have yet to find or be aware of a city, a non-township that has enough funding, you know, getting the PA $51 and other sources. I never am talking to a peer or another finance person at another community, and they say, oh, this is great having our own roads, and we have enough funding to get them. So as you're going through this committee and evaluating things, I think that's important to reflect back on is you want to solve a problem, and that problem is we don't have enough funding and sources and options to address the local roads here, and we don't get enough support from the external parties. But there's a good chance by fixing that problem, potentially by becoming a city, you take on 10 other problems in that course. So that's just my take on it, just from a financially view. Just a question, from a financial point of view. Obviously, the other things, we're going to have other people from other departments, police, fire, everybody. But if Public Act 51, which prohibits funds coming directly for roads, directly to the township, if that was done away with, in other words, we become a city, then we could get money from the state directly. Number one, in that case, would that be beneficial? Would we see a benefit from that financially? So we'll just work at the institutions going to get there as well, I suppose it's not possible to manipulate there and be people that are coming in and shallotally. That's what is happening. There have people that are scoring things that are learning. And again, because they are working a lot together, it's a tough to answer because I mean I spent a little bit of time looking at other communities audits they're all online either on their own websites and there's a state website that has them all out there so anyone can go look up any community city village township and look at their audit and so I tried

  5. and that problem is we don't have enough funding and sources and options to address the local roads here, and we don't get enough support from the external parties. But there's a good chance by fixing that problem, potentially by becoming a city, you take on 10 other problems in that course. So that's just my take on it, just from a financially view. Just a question, from a financial point of view. Obviously, the other things, we're going to have other people from other departments, police, fire, everybody. But if Public Act 51, which prohibits funds coming directly for roads, directly to the township, if that was done away with, in other words, we become a city, then we could get money from the state directly. Number one, in that case, would that be beneficial? Would we see a benefit from that financially? So we'll just work at the institutions going to get there as well, I suppose it's not possible to manipulate there and be people that are coming in and shallotally. That's what is happening. There have people that are scoring things that are learning. And again, because they are working a lot together, it's a tough to answer because I mean I spent a little bit of time looking at other communities audits they're all online either on their own websites and there's a state website that has them all out there so anyone can go look up any community city village township and look at their audit and so I tried looking at some cities to see like what if I could determine what what type of funding they're getting and and how does that compare to what they're spending and what you'll notice is in the cities and I don't quite know the difference between them because I've I've only been here at the township but most of them have a major streets fund and then a local streets fund and then they'll show that there's state sources of revenue coming into each of those typically most of that revenue is going in their major streets fund and then you can see how much they're spending it's not in a lot of detail but at least when I went through briefly that exercise they're all spending more on the expense side then is being shown in that state sources of funding revenue and typically most of them are then having to supplement from somewhere else whether it's a transfer in from their general fund or special assessment revenue or some other yeah so in your opinion if as any township

  6. any community city village township and look at their audit and so I tried looking at some cities to see like what if I could determine what what type of funding they're getting and and how does that compare to what they're spending and what you'll notice is in the cities and I don't quite know the difference between them because I've I've only been here at the township but most of them have a major streets fund and then a local streets fund and then they'll show that there's state sources of revenue coming into each of those typically most of that revenue is going in their major streets fund and then you can see how much they're spending it's not in a lot of detail but at least when I went through briefly that exercise they're all spending more on the expense side then is being shown in that state sources of funding revenue and typically most of them are then having to supplement from somewhere else whether it's a transfer in from their general fund or special assessment revenue or some other yeah so in your opinion if as any township been converted from a city to a city that's been advantageous to the how it handles and budgets roads I have not come across that not in the history of the world I think it's important that we're dilly-dallying around at something that in the in the in the element of reality it's just not unless they change a lot of things about Public Act 51 which you and I can't determine it doesn't make any sense I mean you can say that even though even a finance guy can say this doesn't make any sense financially it does not make sense I I mean it and I've been try I've tried to be an open mind and do some research research and look just so I'm not missing something and I have not come across or heard of any other township that has gone through this exercise and I haven't heard of anyone exploring it but in one of my answers that I comments I left to myself was I mean there's nothing wrong with hiring a consultant an auditing firm I'm sure the consulting arm of plant Moran handles these types of things that

  7. been converted from a city to a city that's been advantageous to the how it handles and budgets roads I have not come across that not in the history of the world I think it's important that we're dilly-dallying around at something that in the in the in the element of reality it's just not unless they change a lot of things about Public Act 51 which you and I can't determine it doesn't make any sense I mean you can say that even though even a finance guy can say this doesn't make any sense financially it does not make sense I I mean it and I've been try I've tried to be an open mind and do some research research and look just so I'm not missing something and I have not come across or heard of any other township that has gone through this exercise and I haven't heard of anyone exploring it but in one of my answers that I comments I left to myself was I mean there's nothing wrong with hiring a consultant an auditing firm I'm sure the consulting arm of plant Moran handles these types of things that may have actually been who we used in the early 2000s when we went through this exercise they'd be able to not just look at the financial side but the whole gamut of what what would happen if Hill Township, all the pros and cons of going to a city. I mean, it's everything from your current elected positions would be dissolved, they'd be replaced by now a commission instead of a board to taking on all the infrastructure and of course all the financial ups and downs and pros and cons of that. I mean, that could be a path to recommend to the board at some point to, you know, if you still wanted to go down that, you could look into it and obviously there'd be a cost to have somebody do that exercise. Thanks, thanks for your pointed answer. Jason, do you have, from talking with colleagues, any sense of how much, the township says, yes, we're going to do it, how much does that cost? You've got to rebrand things, you've got to, I mean, lots of other things that have to go on. Yeah, I have no idea. Like I said, because I don't know of anyone

  8. I'm sure the consulting arm of plant Moran handles these types of things that may have actually been who we used in the early 2000s when we went through this exercise they'd be able to not just look at the financial side but the whole gamut of what what would happen if Hill Township, all the pros and cons of going to a city. I mean, it's everything from your current elected positions would be dissolved, they'd be replaced by now a commission instead of a board to taking on all the infrastructure and of course all the financial ups and downs and pros and cons of that. I mean, that could be a path to recommend to the board at some point to, you know, if you still wanted to go down that, you could look into it and obviously there'd be a cost to have somebody do that exercise. Thanks, thanks for your pointed answer. Jason, do you have, from talking with colleagues, any sense of how much, the township says, yes, we're going to do it, how much does that cost? You've got to rebrand things, you've got to, I mean, lots of other things that have to go on. Yeah, I have no idea. Like I said, because I don't know of anyone that's ever done it. It can't be cheap. I would expect not, but whether that's, you know, six figures, seven, like I have no idea what that would be. Thank you. In your research, did you identify under Public Act 51 how that allocation goes to cities and if we were a city by something, you know, how much money would we get from the road fund? I have not been able to determine that. because I was thinking that, um... but I'm figuring it out on the way, Um, I saw. that, um... Thank you. but for example you know again in in cities audits on their statements they don't call it act 51 money on you know on their their statements they just they categorize it per accounting principles so like I said like city of Birmingham has a major streets fund and a local streets fund and then those they'll say state sources grants investment income so my guess is there's a state sources revenue and for their major streets fund they got 1.9 million dollars doesn't seem like a lot I know they're quite different in size from us and maybe the downtown

  9. Like I said, because I don't know of anyone that's ever done it. It can't be cheap. I would expect not, but whether that's, you know, six figures, seven, like I have no idea what that would be. Thank you. In your research, did you identify under Public Act 51 how that allocation goes to cities and if we were a city by something, you know, how much money would we get from the road fund? I have not been able to determine that. because I was thinking that, um... but I'm figuring it out on the way, Um, I saw. that, um... Thank you. but for example you know again in in cities audits on their statements they don't call it act 51 money on you know on their their statements they just they categorize it per accounting principles so like I said like city of Birmingham has a major streets fund and a local streets fund and then those they'll say state sources grants investment income so my guess is there's a state sources revenue and for their major streets fund they got 1.9 million dollars doesn't seem like a lot I know they're quite different in size from us and maybe the downtown and all that and then other and then for you know they got a few hundred thousand dollars of investment income so 2.2 million dollars for that year but then they spend over five million dollars on a categorized as public works which would be roads so not a great year for them and you know that's just one example another one I pulled was city of sterling heights state sources they got for major streets 11.8 million but then then they spent over Twelve and a half 13 That doesn't paint the whole picture which is kind of gives you an idea of the Differences and obviously we wouldn't know from their board or Commission standpoint You know spending in City of Birmingham's getting that amount and then spending more than double of it Was that plan was that intended did that catch them up are they still way behind in their infrastructure all of those questions? We can't really get from just looking at their audits, but you didn't look at the public act 51 formula for cities

  10. like a lot I know they're quite different in size from us and maybe the downtown and all that and then other and then for you know they got a few hundred thousand dollars of investment income so 2.2 million dollars for that year but then they spend over five million dollars on a categorized as public works which would be roads so not a great year for them and you know that's just one example another one I pulled was city of sterling heights state sources they got for major streets 11.8 million but then then they spent over Twelve and a half 13 That doesn't paint the whole picture which is kind of gives you an idea of the Differences and obviously we wouldn't know from their board or Commission standpoint You know spending in City of Birmingham's getting that amount and then spending more than double of it Was that plan was that intended did that catch them up are they still way behind in their infrastructure all of those questions? We can't really get from just looking at their audits, but you didn't look at the public act 51 formula for cities No, I have not you didn't do that On the revenue side though, let me ask you this Is there a dip we've had some controversy here about the amount of millage that cities can can can the maximum village a city can use and a township Something like the townships can only can only keep 10 mils or something and cities 20 So if we so in our case, how would that do you have any idea how that would impact us? I Mean just in general not knowing what a New City Commission would do with that Extra if you will 10 mils. I mean I could I could see politically some some People being extremely against it and saying you know, we've survived this long on 10 I'm not going to increase the taxes to the residents I believe you still have to get those passed again I'm not I'm not an expert on city millages but I guess if

  11. We can't really get from just looking at their audits, but you didn't look at the public act 51 formula for cities No, I have not you didn't do that On the revenue side though, let me ask you this Is there a dip we've had some controversy here about the amount of millage that cities can can can the maximum village a city can use and a township Something like the townships can only can only keep 10 mils or something and cities 20 So if we so in our case, how would that do you have any idea how that would impact us? I Mean just in general not knowing what a New City Commission would do with that Extra if you will 10 mils. I mean I could I could see politically some some People being extremely against it and saying you know, we've survived this long on 10 I'm not going to increase the taxes to the residents I believe you still have to get those passed again I'm not I'm not an expert on city millages but I guess if you were to convert to a city for that purpose and then put it out to a vote and they say yeah we'll willingly pass three four or five mills specifically for roads well the only thing is that when I the last time I did this I did it a few times I've researched I looked and got the millage from Birmingham I didn't use Birmingham as an example Birmingham compared to Township the Birmingham millage was only certain times less than a mill more than than than Bloomfield Township sometimes it's a little more than a mill so it's not a huge difference what they're milling totally what they're what they're taxing the millages and now there are other reasons why they perhaps can get more money I was close together value is higher maybe I don't know but they also have parks and they have other things that they spend money on that we we might not so much the point is that we're not necessarily have to to mill more we have to send out more millage of charge our residents more but the different allocation I think and I don't know the answer that I'm that's what I'm trying to find out so I know is that is it could that be true is it just a different way of allocating or they can retain more rather than sending more off to the state etc yeah I mean what what takes up

  12. get those passed again I'm not I'm not an expert on city millages but I guess if you were to convert to a city for that purpose and then put it out to a vote and they say yeah we'll willingly pass three four or five mills specifically for roads well the only thing is that when I the last time I did this I did it a few times I've researched I looked and got the millage from Birmingham I didn't use Birmingham as an example Birmingham compared to Township the Birmingham millage was only certain times less than a mill more than than than Bloomfield Township sometimes it's a little more than a mill so it's not a huge difference what they're milling totally what they're what they're taxing the millages and now there are other reasons why they perhaps can get more money I was close together value is higher maybe I don't know but they also have parks and they have other things that they spend money on that we we might not so much the point is that we're not necessarily have to to mill more we have to send out more millage of charge our residents more but the different allocation I think and I don't know the answer that I'm that's what I'm trying to find out so I know is that is it could that be true is it just a different way of allocating or they can retain more rather than sending more off to the state etc yeah I mean what what takes up majority of about 65% of our millage about six and a half mills is public safety so there's your only if you were to say you know we can't can't touch that where you're only down to your remaining 35% which you have general which has to cover all of the administrative clerks assessing accounting HR all those things that have to support your other bigger departments and we have some special revenue millages to support senior service center that was built in 2009 another popular one when it comes up for renewal every five years is the is the safety path construction program people seem to like to have that continue on so I mean internally we've discussed that every time a millage is up for renewal of whether there's another way to restructure and actually the because we had a little bit of room in our cap a couple years ago we increase the senior center millage by 10 cents going from 23 cents to 33 and they needed that to

  13. majority of about 65% of our millage about six and a half mills is public safety so there's your only if you were to say you know we can't can't touch that where you're only down to your remaining 35% which you have general which has to cover all of the administrative clerks assessing accounting HR all those things that have to support your other bigger departments and we have some special revenue millages to support senior service center that was built in 2009 another popular one when it comes up for renewal every five years is the is the safety path construction program people seem to like to have that continue on so I mean internally we've discussed that every time a millage is up for renewal of whether there's another way to restructure and actually the because we had a little bit of room in our cap a couple years ago we increase the senior center millage by 10 cents going from 23 cents to 33 and they needed that to continue operating they were they were at deficits for a few years so it is something we look at it and I don't know if I'm answering you your exact question but we assess it it's something we need to I think it's we need to look at it I think that's what you said I agree I think that's correct it seems to me that if Birmingham for instance except I haven't got in front of me I have to hear someplace it was at like 51 mills or something I you know I shouldn't even give a number but it was just it was the millage was so close to what we're milling so how can they then when they do their roads like they did Arlington and Shirley for instance they they had an SAT but it was way less than what we have to charge well what's their average property value versus ours I see well I said property values are higher but they also they also have parks they have parks we don't have they have an ice arena we don't have they have other things that they spend money on that we don't have to do we don't have so but we need to look at I mean I don't have an answer I don't know I'd like to find out so okay so Jason you're familiar I'm sure with the controversy over that's why we're here right the roads the SATs

  14. center millage by 10 cents going from 23 cents to 33 and they needed that to continue operating they were they were at deficits for a few years so it is something we look at it and I don't know if I'm answering you your exact question but we assess it it's something we need to I think it's we need to look at it I think that's what you said I agree I think that's correct it seems to me that if Birmingham for instance except I haven't got in front of me I have to hear someplace it was at like 51 mills or something I you know I shouldn't even give a number but it was just it was the millage was so close to what we're milling so how can they then when they do their roads like they did Arlington and Shirley for instance they they had an SAT but it was way less than what we have to charge well what's their average property value versus ours I see well I said property values are higher but they also they also have parks they have parks we don't have they have an ice arena we don't have they have other things that they spend money on that we don't have to do we don't have so but we need to look at I mean I don't have an answer I don't know I'd like to find out so okay so Jason you're familiar I'm sure with the controversy over that's why we're here right the roads the SATs and how this is all gone and Jeff is mentioning Arlington and Shirley you're familiar with those streets probably in Birmingham and they were recently redone and the amount that he's referencing they were redone was precipitously less than the cost to the streets that were done I mean factually regardless of scope so when the residents come forward to question what's going on and that has led to this process which has been a great process they're searching for answers which leads to all of these questions of you, about how can we do this better? Because they have facts on road reconstruction versus road reconstruction in the township, and no one really understands why there would be such a difference. You're aware of, does that resonate? Are you aware of all that? Yeah, I don't know that I can answer any more than what you've probably already gotten answers from our director of public works. We don't have answers. As a community, that's why we're here. I mean, I would recommend circling back then to our director of public works and maybe at the same time our engineering director, because they, I mean, I'm seeing the SCDs

  15. sure with the controversy over that's why we're here right the roads the SATs and how this is all gone and Jeff is mentioning Arlington and Shirley you're familiar with those streets probably in Birmingham and they were recently redone and the amount that he's referencing they were redone was precipitously less than the cost to the streets that were done I mean factually regardless of scope so when the residents come forward to question what's going on and that has led to this process which has been a great process they're searching for answers which leads to all of these questions of you, about how can we do this better? Because they have facts on road reconstruction versus road reconstruction in the township, and no one really understands why there would be such a difference. You're aware of, does that resonate? Are you aware of all that? Yeah, I don't know that I can answer any more than what you've probably already gotten answers from our director of public works. We don't have answers. As a community, that's why we're here. I mean, I would recommend circling back then to our director of public works and maybe at the same time our engineering director, because they, I mean, I'm seeing the SCDs at a later stage in their life, whereas they're more in the front end and they work with the contractors that then help to determine whether you can get away with just an overlay or a complete reconstruction. And I know that, from what I heard, the ones in the village had to go a lot deeper than other ones and had maybe a different scope. But regardless of that, the scope wasn't that different on Arlington and Shirley. It was very analogous, so that's, I'm upstream from that. I appreciate your comment saying we could ask people on Mike's team that are subject matter experts about the project design. But I'm above that saying that's why there are these questions, right, trying to understand the comparative nature and where the funds come from to reduce the cost to the citizens. citizenry for roads yeah okay thanks all right so okay do you want you want to continue with those there was a I wasn't sure where this question was going there was a what impact with the loss of constitutional funding have like I guess what we're not at as far as I'm aware there's nothing saying we're at any risk

  16. because they, I mean, I'm seeing the SCDs at a later stage in their life, whereas they're more in the front end and they work with the contractors that then help to determine whether you can get away with just an overlay or a complete reconstruction. And I know that, from what I heard, the ones in the village had to go a lot deeper than other ones and had maybe a different scope. But regardless of that, the scope wasn't that different on Arlington and Shirley. It was very analogous, so that's, I'm upstream from that. I appreciate your comment saying we could ask people on Mike's team that are subject matter experts about the project design. But I'm above that saying that's why there are these questions, right, trying to understand the comparative nature and where the funds come from to reduce the cost to the citizens. citizenry for roads yeah okay thanks all right so okay do you want you want to continue with those there was a I wasn't sure where this question was going there was a what impact with the loss of constitutional funding have like I guess what we're not at as far as I'm aware there's nothing saying we're at any risk of that like what what scenario would that be that we would have a loss in constitutional I think Michael you've talked about that many times yeah under the new road bill passed in Lansing they reduced our some of our constitutional funding oh the statutory was it statutory constitutional okay yeah statutory okay at least that was my take on it that loss was about three hundred thousand dollars I mean our total revenue sharing annually is about 4.8 million that's constitutional and statutory so I mean it three hundred thousand is not a small number now they're giving us a little you know 40,000 back this but it has things attached to it that say we have to spend it specifically on things related public safety and so you could say it's a little less than that you know 250 260 but I guess when when with that reduction because the road fund we

  17. what we're not at as far as I'm aware there's nothing saying we're at any risk of that like what what scenario would that be that we would have a loss in constitutional I think Michael you've talked about that many times yeah under the new road bill passed in Lansing they reduced our some of our constitutional funding oh the statutory was it statutory constitutional okay yeah statutory okay at least that was my take on it that loss was about three hundred thousand dollars I mean our total revenue sharing annually is about 4.8 million that's constitutional and statutory so I mean it three hundred thousand is not a small number now they're giving us a little you know 40,000 back this but it has things attached to it that say we have to spend it specifically on things related public safety and so you could say it's a little less than that you know 250 260 but I guess when when with that reduction because the road fund we currently have its operations are funded significantly beyond the millage the road millage we do a very large transfer in from the general fund so you could argue that we're able to give that general fund money to the road fund because we have things like state revenue sharing and the general millages so I guess in short I would say that could impact the general funds ability by general fund receiving less 300,000 250,000 less might not be in the best position to give as much to the road fund so you could you have a trickle down effect that could happen to where we may have to cut certain things in the in the road fund which typically when we get to that point the first thing we have to look at is what are we paying the paving contractors which are the ones that are doing the bigger size work that our internal labor can't handle which they typically just do the patching and plow snow removal during the winter and and the public safety fund and I think in my earlier present

  18. know 250 260 but I guess when when with that reduction because the road fund we currently have its operations are funded significantly beyond the millage the road millage we do a very large transfer in from the general fund so you could argue that we're able to give that general fund money to the road fund because we have things like state revenue sharing and the general millages so I guess in short I would say that could impact the general funds ability by general fund receiving less 300,000 250,000 less might not be in the best position to give as much to the road fund so you could you have a trickle down effect that could happen to where we may have to cut certain things in the in the road fund which typically when we get to that point the first thing we have to look at is what are we paying the paving contractors which are the ones that are doing the bigger size work that our internal labor can't handle which they typically just do the patching and plow snow removal during the winter and and the public safety fund and I think in my earlier present in the year I talk about public safety fund it also gets a very sizable transfer from the general fund so they can get affected by that loss and revenue sharing as well and so they're kind of both vying for that support from the general fund and there was a question last one I had was the debt ratio of the township with with all this sad debt every time we have a credit rating call with Standard & Poor's and once in a while we have one with Moody's they do bring it up every every call we have they bring up our debt ratio is getting worse and worse each year that we talk to them with every bond issue but they will not give us a number like what is their threshold they won't tell us because there's all sorts of factors I'm sure it's probably not a hard number they factor in everything when they talk to you but we're almost at a third of our outstanding principal right now is from these road SATs since we started doing them 12 13 14 years ago so it each one is increasing that that debt ratio and

  19. in the year I talk about public safety fund it also gets a very sizable transfer from the general fund so they can get affected by that loss and revenue sharing as well and so they're kind of both vying for that support from the general fund and there was a question last one I had was the debt ratio of the township with with all this sad debt every time we have a credit rating call with Standard & Poor's and once in a while we have one with Moody's they do bring it up every every call we have they bring up our debt ratio is getting worse and worse each year that we talk to them with every bond issue but they will not give us a number like what is their threshold they won't tell us because there's all sorts of factors I'm sure it's probably not a hard number they factor in everything when they talk to you but we're almost at a third of our outstanding principal right now is from these road SATs since we started doing them 12 13 14 years ago so it each one is increasing that that debt ratio and making it a little worse so I I don't have a solid answer of what that magic number is that that could possibly cause the township to be downgraded which nobody wants to see that happen we've we got that triple-a and then the hardest thing is now to keep the triple-a so even though there's an SAD has a guaranteed revenue source to pay that debt yeah that fact just the size of it factors yeah the amount like the you said a third so that so that even though that even though you know it's guaranteed you're going to get that money it's not like you have a debt that you may not be able to pay so you have more debt you have too much you haven't got the income to pay it so then your your credit rating drops but you have you have you have a guaranteed income for that that debt it's gonna pay it's not like yeah it's gonna be default yeah and we've in our calls with them we've had those exact words and conversations and and they just go back to well our our approved methodology is this and and we have to look at it and and they basically look at that that year and what's due

  20. them 12 13 14 years ago so it each one is increasing that that debt ratio and making it a little worse so I I don't have a solid answer of what that magic number is that that could possibly cause the township to be downgraded which nobody wants to see that happen we've we got that triple-a and then the hardest thing is now to keep the triple-a so even though there's an SAD has a guaranteed revenue source to pay that debt yeah that fact just the size of it factors yeah the amount like the you said a third so that so that even though that even though you know it's guaranteed you're going to get that money it's not like you have a debt that you may not be able to pay so you have more debt you have too much you haven't got the income to pay it so then your your credit rating drops but you have you have you have a guaranteed income for that that debt it's gonna pay it's not like yeah it's gonna be default yeah and we've in our calls with them we've had those exact words and conversations and and they just go back to well our our approved methodology is this and and we have to look at it and and they basically look at that that year and what's due that year and they don't look at the that revenue stream that's been dedicated to that okay so but they haven't changed they haven't changed their rating so they obviously understand spiritually that they could do that well could come to a point where they can say no now we're at the point where no they could be and however and then the Jehovah will come in and tell them what to do but they haven't reached that yet if we get to a point where they say any more debt you can't take on no more SADs, then what happens, then the roads in the subdivisions, they're getting worse as it is now. We saw that on the PACER report, how bad, how much of the township roads need to be repaired, replaced. So if it comes to a point and say no more SADs, you can't, you can't take out any more debt. So what happens? You don't fix the roads at all. Nothing, there's no funds for it. Then it's supposed to the county at that point, and it's a 10 year SAD instead of 15. Instead of Bluefield Township being involved in the financial rectification of it, it's the homeowner and the road commission of Oakland County. Today, people have options, the township or the road commission. The township option could be eliminated, so they would have to go to the county.

  21. have to look at it and and they basically look at that that year and what's due that year and they don't look at the that revenue stream that's been dedicated to that okay so but they haven't changed they haven't changed their rating so they obviously understand spiritually that they could do that well could come to a point where they can say no now we're at the point where no they could be and however and then the Jehovah will come in and tell them what to do but they haven't reached that yet if we get to a point where they say any more debt you can't take on no more SADs, then what happens, then the roads in the subdivisions, they're getting worse as it is now. We saw that on the PACER report, how bad, how much of the township roads need to be repaired, replaced. So if it comes to a point and say no more SADs, you can't, you can't take out any more debt. So what happens? You don't fix the roads at all. Nothing, there's no funds for it. Then it's supposed to the county at that point, and it's a 10 year SAD instead of 15. Instead of Bluefield Township being involved in the financial rectification of it, it's the homeowner and the road commission of Oakland County. Today, people have options, the township or the road commission. The township option could be eliminated, so they would have to go to the county. Very good. Yeah, so then it would be more expensive, because they're shorter span and higher interest rates. Yes. Yeah, I live in commerce, and so the only option we would have if my neighborhood wanted to do that was we'd go through the county. Commerce doesn't have its own program, so whatever the county's terms are, their contractor, it would all be done through them. And so the commerce would take on no debt onto their books, and no processing, and... So the point is that it would get more expensive. It wouldn't be $60,000, as Mindy has told us in her subdivision, it'd be $70,000 or more. I mean, it's already at a point where you can't, it's untenable, that's just, you can't... you can't it doesn't work so so if we can't take on any more debt SADs through the township if that's the way we have to go that will get more expensive I got a couple I don't know if it would yeah I can't answer that okay I got a couple questions on the button we're a triple a rated today what's the what's our rate it's a triple a triple a enterprise gosh I trying to think of the last village

  22. Very good. Yeah, so then it would be more expensive, because they're shorter span and higher interest rates. Yes. Yeah, I live in commerce, and so the only option we would have if my neighborhood wanted to do that was we'd go through the county. Commerce doesn't have its own program, so whatever the county's terms are, their contractor, it would all be done through them. And so the commerce would take on no debt onto their books, and no processing, and... So the point is that it would get more expensive. It wouldn't be $60,000, as Mindy has told us in her subdivision, it'd be $70,000 or more. I mean, it's already at a point where you can't, it's untenable, that's just, you can't... you can't it doesn't work so so if we can't take on any more debt SADs through the township if that's the way we have to go that will get more expensive I got a couple I don't know if it would yeah I can't answer that okay I got a couple questions on the button we're a triple a rated today what's the what's our rate it's a triple a triple a enterprise gosh I trying to think of the last village SAD we we approved it was a great rate around three three something and I'm just I'm just spitballing it was a really good rate lower than what most of the other bond sales that occurred this year came in it and if you took on more debt and they and they decided to downgrade you to a double a versus a triple a how many basis points difference would that result in there's not a exact science to that either and we've we've asked our our bond municipal advisors that each year when we go through these exercises and they can never give us a solid answer because it all comes down to the methodology of the of S&P or Moody's whoever's rating you the market at that exact time but I know when we've pressed the market at that exact time but if they're not demonic they'll they'll they'll they'll Thank you. say it could be anywhere from 25 to 75 basis points or just one down yeah if one of these agencies rating agencies gets up gets anxious do they give you a

  23. it's a triple a triple a enterprise gosh I trying to think of the last village SAD we we approved it was a great rate around three three something and I'm just I'm just spitballing it was a really good rate lower than what most of the other bond sales that occurred this year came in it and if you took on more debt and they and they decided to downgrade you to a double a versus a triple a how many basis points difference would that result in there's not a exact science to that either and we've we've asked our our bond municipal advisors that each year when we go through these exercises and they can never give us a solid answer because it all comes down to the methodology of the of S&P or Moody's whoever's rating you the market at that exact time but I know when we've pressed the market at that exact time but if they're not demonic they'll they'll they'll they'll Thank you. say it could be anywhere from 25 to 75 basis points or just one down yeah if one of these agencies rating agencies gets up gets anxious do they give you a warning and say you've got to get your act together in six months or a year or did they just change the rating not outright they will if you read their they don't call it a press release but when they release something every time they finished rating somebody and they'll there'll be an outlook they'll talk about why they rated it the way they did and then they'll do an outlook of things that could become a problem or could be a factor in future ratings and so that's where they'll revisit the townships debt ratio which doesn't include not they aren't just looking at the the bond that we have in the sad debt but they also roll in there our legacy debt of our benefits that have been closed and so they always bring that up they bring up the the overall bond debt ratio and anything else but township really in all the other aspects is pretty financially sound so there's not a whole lot that they bring up besides the debt so it's a sort of a failed war

  24. one of these agencies rating agencies gets up gets anxious do they give you a warning and say you've got to get your act together in six months or a year or did they just change the rating not outright they will if you read their they don't call it a press release but when they release something every time they finished rating somebody and they'll there'll be an outlook they'll talk about why they rated it the way they did and then they'll do an outlook of things that could become a problem or could be a factor in future ratings and so that's where they'll revisit the townships debt ratio which doesn't include not they aren't just looking at the the bond that we have in the sad debt but they also roll in there our legacy debt of our benefits that have been closed and so they always bring that up they bring up the the overall bond debt ratio and anything else but township really in all the other aspects is pretty financially sound so there's not a whole lot that they bring up besides the debt so it's a sort of a failed war Yeah. Okay. Unfortunately, we have to split this up into the other one, too, so we have to wrap it up, but let me just, to wrap it up, do you think with the, just the changes in the financing in Lansing and the budget and all that, without major, major, a change in the culture, a change in the way we do things, do you think that we could, we could recommend and solve this problem with the finances that are coming out of Lansing right now? No. Okay. So we need, I knew that was the answer. So we have to think larger, don't we? We have to make major changes, whether it's, and I'm not suggesting it, we don't know, changing, getting rid of PA 51, maybe not, I don't know, really, that's a major change, becoming a city, that's a major change, or certain, or other things, other than just where we're moving right now, and you think that is what has to happen? Not those particular things, but major changes. 100%, because what, I mean, this problem you're trying to address is not a Bloomfield Township only problem, it goes way, it's a state problem, every township problem.

  25. Yeah. Okay. Unfortunately, we have to split this up into the other one, too, so we have to wrap it up, but let me just, to wrap it up, do you think with the, just the changes in the financing in Lansing and the budget and all that, without major, major, a change in the culture, a change in the way we do things, do you think that we could, we could recommend and solve this problem with the finances that are coming out of Lansing right now? No. Okay. So we need, I knew that was the answer. So we have to think larger, don't we? We have to make major changes, whether it's, and I'm not suggesting it, we don't know, changing, getting rid of PA 51, maybe not, I don't know, really, that's a major change, becoming a city, that's a major change, or certain, or other things, other than just where we're moving right now, and you think that is what has to happen? Not those particular things, but major changes. 100%, because what, I mean, this problem you're trying to address is not a Bloomfield Township only problem, it goes way, it's a state problem, every township problem. I would say it's similar to property tax reform. We have all sorts of issues with property taxes and nothing will ever happen because you need everyone in Lansing to get on board with it and nobody wants to tackle it yeah okay it does the township of today as we said here today do they plan on selling any more bonds in the next couple years or you don't you see taking yeah there there's there's there's still interest even even at those costs with the assessing and engineering are still seeing petitions neighborhoods wanting at least showing interest I'm just talking the overall operation of do you see any more occurring any more debt not for roads but for everything else possibly in water and sewer those come up every now and then for a big project but outside of that I'm not aware of anything and what do you see of the next three to five years is the pay down on the bond obligations versus today in total outstanding if we stopped issuing new debt it would come down pretty rapidly but the the big point a big year to keep in mind is 2032 we have two really large debts that'll be completely paid

  26. only problem, it goes way, it's a state problem, every township problem. I would say it's similar to property tax reform. We have all sorts of issues with property taxes and nothing will ever happen because you need everyone in Lansing to get on board with it and nobody wants to tackle it yeah okay it does the township of today as we said here today do they plan on selling any more bonds in the next couple years or you don't you see taking yeah there there's there's there's still interest even even at those costs with the assessing and engineering are still seeing petitions neighborhoods wanting at least showing interest I'm just talking the overall operation of do you see any more occurring any more debt not for roads but for everything else possibly in water and sewer those come up every now and then for a big project but outside of that I'm not aware of anything and what do you see of the next three to five years is the pay down on the bond obligations versus today in total outstanding if we stopped issuing new debt it would come down pretty rapidly but the the big point a big year to keep in mind is 2032 we have two really large debts that'll be completely paid off in that year and that's the pension obligation bond debt and the township campus bond debt could you provide us the committee with how that debt gets retired between now and 2032 so we can see how that capacity comes down there maybe I just have to I heard what you just said Jason there is there is not interest in the fifth section in Bloomfield village to go ahead with the project I just have to go on the record and say that there's tremendous communication with the residents of that section of the village to not sign the petition as it currently stands and there were residents that were going to come today to speak to this issue and they could not be here because of business commitments so I just want to say that on the record to represent people that live in Bloomfield village because I know this is factually true understood and I wasn't referring to that one I know I wasn't saying this to you I was just getting it on the record yes all right thank you so much okay we've learned we got nothing another perspective but we what we need to do is move on but I'd like to have if anybody public comment on roads we have this is the

  27. point a big year to keep in mind is 2032 we have two really large debts that'll be completely paid off in that year and that's the pension obligation bond debt and the township campus bond debt could you provide us the committee with how that debt gets retired between now and 2032 so we can see how that capacity comes down there maybe I just have to I heard what you just said Jason there is there is not interest in the fifth section in Bloomfield village to go ahead with the project I just have to go on the record and say that there's tremendous communication with the residents of that section of the village to not sign the petition as it currently stands and there were residents that were going to come today to speak to this issue and they could not be here because of business commitments so I just want to say that on the record to represent people that live in Bloomfield village because I know this is factually true understood and I wasn't referring to that one I know I wasn't saying this to you I was just getting it on the record yes all right thank you so much okay we've learned we got nothing another perspective but we what we need to do is move on but I'd like to have if anybody public comment on roads we have this is the opportunity to come come to the Pope you have to come there name and address three minutes and welcome to you to give your comments okay thanks and is does that mean then you're gonna go to the deer you're gonna talk about yes we're gonna adjourn this meeting and then go to deer it's something other than that but are you is this committee both deer and roads yes it is I did not know that you in the township don't count this for my minutes in the township board meeting you said you're gonna create a special deer committee you had a conversation Mike with Martin special deer committee and I thought you were gonna ask for new people to be on the dear committee yeah so you you did yeah here in lynn i never saw any notices yeah and then we discussed whether through a few meetings if this committee would take on the issue okay the public i'm very watchful it's not coming through okay it's not coming through so i had a few people that were interested in that dear committee okay i thought it was going to be separate i thought i would see a note i'm the president of my neighborhood i'll give you my

  28. I'd like to have if anybody public comment on roads we have this is the opportunity to come come to the Pope you have to come there name and address three minutes and welcome to you to give your comments okay thanks and is does that mean then you're gonna go to the deer you're gonna talk about yes we're gonna adjourn this meeting and then go to deer it's something other than that but are you is this committee both deer and roads yes it is I did not know that you in the township don't count this for my minutes in the township board meeting you said you're gonna create a special deer committee you had a conversation Mike with Martin special deer committee and I thought you were gonna ask for new people to be on the dear committee yeah so you you did yeah here in lynn i never saw any notices yeah and then we discussed whether through a few meetings if this committee would take on the issue okay the public i'm very watchful it's not coming through okay it's not coming through so i had a few people that were interested in that dear committee okay i thought it was going to be separate i thought i would see a note i'm the president of my neighborhood i'll give you my name in a minute anyway i feel like that is a little not right this is different committee roads are roads dear are dear and let's hope the two never meet well and they do i know but my two cents jeanette phillips um 6385 hills drive down by maple gilbert lake road kind of um i'm the president of our little neighborhood association also um i just want to give you an idea that has been in my mind for years and it's this i don't have any of the data i'm happily well not that happily i can do some of the legwork but i think the township uh staff especially the finance director could do this in a minute but i would i would like you to ask them what the annual regular increase in property taxes you is over time as our properties you know increase the value what is that percentage five percent ten percent a year and hold that there are expenses that increase too i get that but what's that number then ask them to give you the reports on all new homes or new sales

  29. separate i thought i would see a note i'm the president of my neighborhood i'll give you my name in a minute anyway i feel like that is a little not right this is different committee roads are roads dear are dear and let's hope the two never meet well and they do i know but my two cents jeanette phillips um 6385 hills drive down by maple gilbert lake road kind of um i'm the president of our little neighborhood association also um i just want to give you an idea that has been in my mind for years and it's this i don't have any of the data i'm happily well not that happily i can do some of the legwork but i think the township uh staff especially the finance director could do this in a minute but i would i would like you to ask them what the annual regular increase in property taxes you is over time as our properties you know increase the value what is that percentage five percent ten percent a year and hold that there are expenses that increase too i get that but what's that number then ask them to give you the reports on all new homes or new sales past five years this property tax they bump up they sell the property from the old prop a thing to the new you enjoy this huge increase in property tax revenue and how that mixes into the total revenue for the township also when you build a new construction home we're having that experience on hills drive it chews up the road so that increase we sold the house for 500 000 ish 700 maybe they're asking 5 million now it's a pending sale that increase in property tax that chunk of money that comes to the township does not benefit the neighbors and it should so putting some of that increase in escrow to fix the roads because the trucks chew the roads up and ask the builders or the buyer of the new home to put money in escrow to repave their stretch those two some of those those things alone could help us get to where we need to be you

  30. that number then ask them to give you the reports on all new homes or new sales past five years this property tax they bump up they sell the property from the old prop a thing to the new you enjoy this huge increase in property tax revenue and how that mixes into the total revenue for the township also when you build a new construction home we're having that experience on hills drive it chews up the road so that increase we sold the house for 500 000 ish 700 maybe they're asking 5 million now it's a pending sale that increase in property tax that chunk of money that comes to the township does not benefit the neighbors and it should so putting some of that increase in escrow to fix the roads because the trucks chew the roads up and ask the builders or the buyer of the new home to put money in escrow to repave their stretch those two some of those those things alone could help us get to where we need to be you to fix the roads in neighborhoods where these big new constructions are occurring or houses are just like flipping five times the value. So that's, let me cut in if you don't mind, but that's what Fred Nader, his whole argument is about, right? Right, right. And so we're starting to address that. But I talked to our assessor, and we can have him come back and go through the numbers she's asking for. But I did ask him, with all the new constructions, the turnover, what's it adding to our bottom line? I said about 3%. And then if you look at your mills, you're going to get a new tax statement here in, I think it's December, they sent them out, December 10th. And they did a couple of copies so you could look at it. And if you look at the breakdown, okay, we're at about 9.96 to run the township, all the other mills that add up for the schools, the library, transit, a few other things in there. And then within our mills, you'll see, and Jason discussed it, with the breakdown of, was it 40% Jason goes to public safety? No, about 65%. 65%. 65%. So of all the mills we collect, 65% goes to public safety. But my point is, you have a baseline, and then you have these blips. These blips, you know, are nice.

  31. to fix the roads in neighborhoods where these big new constructions are occurring or houses are just like flipping five times the value. So that's, let me cut in if you don't mind, but that's what Fred Nader, his whole argument is about, right? Right, right. And so we're starting to address that. But I talked to our assessor, and we can have him come back and go through the numbers she's asking for. But I did ask him, with all the new constructions, the turnover, what's it adding to our bottom line? I said about 3%. And then if you look at your mills, you're going to get a new tax statement here in, I think it's December, they sent them out, December 10th. And they did a couple of copies so you could look at it. And if you look at the breakdown, okay, we're at about 9.96 to run the township, all the other mills that add up for the schools, the library, transit, a few other things in there. And then within our mills, you'll see, and Jason discussed it, with the breakdown of, was it 40% Jason goes to public safety? No, about 65%. 65%. 65%. So of all the mills we collect, 65% goes to public safety. But my point is, you have a baseline, and then you have these blips. These blips, you know, are nice. They're beautiful blips. Your blips in the sense of new building? Yes. And that added about 3% to our bottom line. Right, but that should be devoted, or 50% of that should be devoted to the road. roads should be devoted to fixing the problems that those new builds create on those streets rather than dividing up the cost in a sad to every neighbor who, you know, it's not our problem. It is our problem, but it's not our fault. Ms. Phillips, we're aware of it. We've discussed it. It's on the further consideration list, so thank you. Yeah, that was one of the things, that could be one of the things as part of a solution. That is true. Okay. Could be. Before you get out of the roads, one other thing. Okay. Okay. Yeah, go ahead. There's an email that I sent out late this afternoon, and it's at your desk. And what I would like to suggest to the committee is that we kind of think in advance of having people come and present to us, that we kind of think about the questions and the things we want to ask and explore. So when the presenters are here, they know exactly and are prepared,

  32. These blips, you know, are nice. They're beautiful blips. Your blips in the sense of new building? Yes. And that added about 3% to our bottom line. Right, but that should be devoted, or 50% of that should be devoted to the road. roads should be devoted to fixing the problems that those new builds create on those streets rather than dividing up the cost in a sad to every neighbor who, you know, it's not our problem. It is our problem, but it's not our fault. Ms. Phillips, we're aware of it. We've discussed it. It's on the further consideration list, so thank you. Yeah, that was one of the things, that could be one of the things as part of a solution. That is true. Okay. Could be. Before you get out of the roads, one other thing. Okay. Okay. Yeah, go ahead. There's an email that I sent out late this afternoon, and it's at your desk. And what I would like to suggest to the committee is that we kind of think in advance of having people come and present to us, that we kind of think about the questions and the things we want to ask and explore. So when the presenters are here, they know exactly and are prepared, and so we can really make these very efficient times to do that. So what I would suggest is the email that's at your place is that we think about that, and this is only a beginning. This is add to the list, and then at our next meeting, we can then agree to what we want to do for the future presentation. So this is to get something started. And we'll make this as part of the minutes of the meeting, so it'll be in all day. That sounds official. That's great. All right, so what we want to do, I need a motion to... adjourn the road advisory committee somebody moved moved support moving support all's in favor aye any opposed okay so that's adjourned now i'm going to open up the meeting the dear advisory committee meeting and again there's no minutes from when we talked about last time so we have two things we want to do today we have a presentation um let me get my glasses on here from nick solely about um to help us understand if if in fact there is a problem we want we want to be sure we're on the right track and then after that we want to talk a bit about the mission statement uh of this if we have time but i don't i don't think we will so we'll have we may have to put that off until the next meeting so officer so awesome so uh sergeant nick solely bloomfield

  33. So when the presenters are here, they know exactly and are prepared, and so we can really make these very efficient times to do that. So what I would suggest is the email that's at your place is that we think about that, and this is only a beginning. This is add to the list, and then at our next meeting, we can then agree to what we want to do for the future presentation. So this is to get something started. And we'll make this as part of the minutes of the meeting, so it'll be in all day. That sounds official. That's great. All right, so what we want to do, I need a motion to... adjourn the road advisory committee somebody moved moved support moving support all's in favor aye any opposed okay so that's adjourned now i'm going to open up the meeting the dear advisory committee meeting and again there's no minutes from when we talked about last time so we have two things we want to do today we have a presentation um let me get my glasses on here from nick solely about um to help us understand if if in fact there is a problem we want we want to be sure we're on the right track and then after that we want to talk a bit about the mission statement uh of this if we have time but i don't i don't think we will so we'll have we may have to put that off until the next meeting so officer so awesome so uh sergeant nick solely bloomfield township no ego here um bloomfield township police department i've been with the township police department 10 years law enforcement 12 i'm currently assigned to our community relations engagement role in public information i'll be quick i didn't i don't have a full presentation for you i'm not going to stand here and tell you whether or not we we have a problem the community is telling us one way or another whether or not they believe it's a problem i do have stats and statistics from what the police department's seeing surprisingly the police department is the agency that that handles our our dear uh concerns here in the township and i'm always available so to um piggyback off what mr hockman said if there's any questions you may have or anything coming down the line that i didn't cover to I'm not an expert in deer I'll admit that right now but I am very good at research and I can look up any police related matters and get those answers to you whether in memo or back in person at one of these meetings so as I stand here today year to date the police department has handled 558 animal complaints 558 animal complaints 461 of those involved deer okay so that means and each thing I'm going to talk about is separate so an animal complaint an

  34. that off until the next meeting so officer so awesome so uh sergeant nick solely bloomfield township no ego here um bloomfield township police department i've been with the township police department 10 years law enforcement 12 i'm currently assigned to our community relations engagement role in public information i'll be quick i didn't i don't have a full presentation for you i'm not going to stand here and tell you whether or not we we have a problem the community is telling us one way or another whether or not they believe it's a problem i do have stats and statistics from what the police department's seeing surprisingly the police department is the agency that that handles our our dear uh concerns here in the township and i'm always available so to um piggyback off what mr hockman said if there's any questions you may have or anything coming down the line that i didn't cover to I'm not an expert in deer I'll admit that right now but I am very good at research and I can look up any police related matters and get those answers to you whether in memo or back in person at one of these meetings so as I stand here today year to date the police department has handled 558 animal complaints 558 animal complaints 461 of those involved deer okay so that means and each thing I'm going to talk about is separate so an animal complaint an accident a dead animal pickup there's no overlap there you're not going to get that animal complaint and then in the same get an overlap number in a dead animal pickup just so we're clear so 461 incidents that just involved deer that could be something like there's a deer stuck on my fence we go out there and we're able to free that deer and it goes on living its life or it could be something like there's an angry deer in my backyard can someone come take a look at it we get there and address that situation so 461 deer calls service that's to date that's your today that's from January 1st until yesterday so as it goes on I talked about a little bit about dead animal pickups so dead animal pickups this is another one I can't differentiate in the data what our deer and what our other animals we do pick up other animals sometimes there's opossums or raccoons or things that we do pick up from the side of the road but you're to date dead animal pickups is at 446 dead animal pickups. If we look at a five-year span, we do about 2,300 in those last five years of just dead animal pickups and disposal from our roadways or private residence. Could be in someone's backyard, front yard, ditches,

  35. and each thing I'm going to talk about is separate so an animal complaint an accident a dead animal pickup there's no overlap there you're not going to get that animal complaint and then in the same get an overlap number in a dead animal pickup just so we're clear so 461 incidents that just involved deer that could be something like there's a deer stuck on my fence we go out there and we're able to free that deer and it goes on living its life or it could be something like there's an angry deer in my backyard can someone come take a look at it we get there and address that situation so 461 deer calls service that's to date that's your today that's from January 1st until yesterday so as it goes on I talked about a little bit about dead animal pickups so dead animal pickups this is another one I can't differentiate in the data what our deer and what our other animals we do pick up other animals sometimes there's opossums or raccoons or things that we do pick up from the side of the road but you're to date dead animal pickups is at 446 dead animal pickups. If we look at a five-year span, we do about 2,300 in those last five years of just dead animal pickups and disposal from our roadways or private residence. Could be in someone's backyard, front yard, ditches, anything like that. The big one that typically gets people's attention are car deer accidents. So I brought all those stats for you. Last 10 years, we've seen just about 750 car deer accidents. That's 10 years of data. To the best of my knowledge, I will say that our data in the last five years is probably a lot more trustworthy than it is five to six to 10 years ago, right? We have just better tracking, better way of categorizing these crashes. So the data's a little bit better the last five years. So I really honed in on those. Year-to-date, we've had 93 car deer accidents. It's important to note that from January 1st to August, the end of August, we had 62 car deer accidents, which leaves us with 31 from September 1st, basically through November 11th. So we are seeing a majority of those car deer accidents happening more recently. That's not really a shock to us with beginning of November to mid-November being rut season and the deer moving. So very common for an area to see an uptick right now. That 93 number, however, is an increase from what we're pretty much...

  36. Could be in someone's backyard, front yard, ditches, anything like that. The big one that typically gets people's attention are car deer accidents. So I brought all those stats for you. Last 10 years, we've seen just about 750 car deer accidents. That's 10 years of data. To the best of my knowledge, I will say that our data in the last five years is probably a lot more trustworthy than it is five to six to 10 years ago, right? We have just better tracking, better way of categorizing these crashes. So the data's a little bit better the last five years. So I really honed in on those. Year-to-date, we've had 93 car deer accidents. It's important to note that from January 1st to August, the end of August, we had 62 car deer accidents, which leaves us with 31 from September 1st, basically through November 11th. So we are seeing a majority of those car deer accidents happening more recently. That's not really a shock to us with beginning of November to mid-November being rut season and the deer moving. So very common for an area to see an uptick right now. That 93 number, however, is an increase from what we're pretty much... used to in previous years with an outlier of 2022. Again, I'm not a deer expert. I can't tell you why there were more in 2022, but we saw a gradual increase 78 back in 2020 up to 93. And it gradually increased with just a really large jump in 2022 and then it went back down to 85, 90, 93. So it gradually grew except for that 2022. Comparing those with our communities around us, I'm cautious in comparing because of the size of communities, the roads, the types of roads, right? We get a lot of car deer accidents on Telegraph, a lot of car deer accidents on Square Lake, that other communities don't have those types of roadways, right? We don't have a whole lot of dirt roads. Other communities do, not that we don't have any. Some communities have very open roads. We have roads that back up to woods and lakes when you look at places like Franklin between Walnut Lake and Long Lake. So hard comparison, but we'll do it anyways. 2024, very average compared to our other communities. Other communities being West Bloomfield, Farmington Hills, Waterford, Franklin, and Birmingham. 2023, we were below the rest of our communities. 2022, above. 2021, average.

  37. used to in previous years with an outlier of 2022. Again, I'm not a deer expert. I can't tell you why there were more in 2022, but we saw a gradual increase 78 back in 2020 up to 93. And it gradually increased with just a really large jump in 2022 and then it went back down to 85, 90, 93. So it gradually grew except for that 2022. Comparing those with our communities around us, I'm cautious in comparing because of the size of communities, the roads, the types of roads, right? We get a lot of car deer accidents on Telegraph, a lot of car deer accidents on Square Lake, that other communities don't have those types of roadways, right? We don't have a whole lot of dirt roads. Other communities do, not that we don't have any. Some communities have very open roads. We have roads that back up to woods and lakes when you look at places like Franklin between Walnut Lake and Long Lake. So hard comparison, but we'll do it anyways. 2024, very average compared to our other communities. Other communities being West Bloomfield, Farmington Hills, Waterford, Franklin, and Birmingham. 2023, we were below the rest of our communities. 2022, above. 2021, average. 2020, we were slightly above. So if you really look at it, we're right about average, but slightly higher for this year. Again, we see that increase right now in, you know, early November to mid-November. They're really running. you see them that's when we start to get the calls i know we kind of chuckle but that's when we start to get the calls that maybe the deer are angry in the backyard type thing they do get a little more aggressive especially our does get a little more aggressive towards dogs nothing attacking people or anything like that so that's kind of where we stand with the with the deer situation number wise i'll take any questions you have fortunately i will say with our car deer accidents we are very fortunate that we don't see many injuries and no serious injuries and of course knock on wood again that doesn't mean it couldn't happen at some of the speeds we have on our roads yes sir what do you have any guesstimate um like how many um deer vehicle dvcs there are that don't get reported to the police that you may not be you know they're not reported so i don't have the data but i would say what's your feeling towards that do you think personal opinion is quite a few right um minor car deer accidents typically don't get reported people go on their

  38. 2020, we were slightly above. So if you really look at it, we're right about average, but slightly higher for this year. Again, we see that increase right now in, you know, early November to mid-November. They're really running. you see them that's when we start to get the calls i know we kind of chuckle but that's when we start to get the calls that maybe the deer are angry in the backyard type thing they do get a little more aggressive especially our does get a little more aggressive towards dogs nothing attacking people or anything like that so that's kind of where we stand with the with the deer situation number wise i'll take any questions you have fortunately i will say with our car deer accidents we are very fortunate that we don't see many injuries and no serious injuries and of course knock on wood again that doesn't mean it couldn't happen at some of the speeds we have on our roads yes sir what do you have any guesstimate um like how many um deer vehicle dvcs there are that don't get reported to the police that you may not be you know they're not reported so i don't have the data but i would say what's your feeling towards that do you think personal opinion is quite a few right um minor car deer accidents typically don't get reported people go on their way um i know that because of our number of deer pickups um a lot of times we'll go to a dead deer where that deer that's where i was going with that that dead deer might be from an accident that wasn't reported yeah when you when you pick up a deer do you do a chronic wasting evaluation on it or not no one because we don't really have a problem here no okay no those are transported by our animal welfare in in the manner that they're trained to do up to a safe disposal so um So, yes, I mean, there are car deer accidents that I would assume don't get reported. I can't put a number on it. You know, a lot of people, depending on their deductible, may look at their damage. I've pulled up on several where they're tying down their hood and saying, nope, I'm just tying down my hood, I don't need a report. You know, insurance isn't going to cover it anyways based on the year of my vehicle and what I have coverage for. So, yes, they do go unreported. I just want to understand, is the trend, is trending upward, though? Is that what you said? What we've seen is trending upward, correct. And, actually, if I pull other statistics that I already had on my phone, I went back with those 10 years. I talked about the five years.

  39. quite a few right um minor car deer accidents typically don't get reported people go on their way um i know that because of our number of deer pickups um a lot of times we'll go to a dead deer where that deer that's where i was going with that that dead deer might be from an accident that wasn't reported yeah when you when you pick up a deer do you do a chronic wasting evaluation on it or not no one because we don't really have a problem here no okay no those are transported by our animal welfare in in the manner that they're trained to do up to a safe disposal so um So, yes, I mean, there are car deer accidents that I would assume don't get reported. I can't put a number on it. You know, a lot of people, depending on their deductible, may look at their damage. I've pulled up on several where they're tying down their hood and saying, nope, I'm just tying down my hood, I don't need a report. You know, insurance isn't going to cover it anyways based on the year of my vehicle and what I have coverage for. So, yes, they do go unreported. I just want to understand, is the trend, is trending upward, though? Is that what you said? What we've seen is trending upward, correct. And, actually, if I pull other statistics that I already had on my phone, I went back with those 10 years. I talked about the five years. But if you look back, you know, 10 years for traffic crashes, if you look at 2016, we're talking 32. 32 compared to now, in 2015 is when I started, 32 to 93. There was no data for 2015 on that. So, and our calls for service on raw data for just deer-related has doubled in the last 10 years. We're looking at less than 250 back in 2015 to almost 500. And since I've been here my 10 years, we've always had animal welfare. We've always gone to deer calls. It's not like we flipped a switch one day and started going to these calls for deer. So, is there better? So, is there better? more development in the township in the last 10 years yes okay yeah they're moving they're moving i mean that's a big reason we're human deer interaction is my point yep more people the deer are moving they're on the move um that's that's what happens you know they have a three to four year lifespan in these deer um there's not a whole lot if any hunting that goes on in the township and new builds come in more development comes in and they get they get moved from one place

  40. I talked about the five years. But if you look back, you know, 10 years for traffic crashes, if you look at 2016, we're talking 32. 32 compared to now, in 2015 is when I started, 32 to 93. There was no data for 2015 on that. So, and our calls for service on raw data for just deer-related has doubled in the last 10 years. We're looking at less than 250 back in 2015 to almost 500. And since I've been here my 10 years, we've always had animal welfare. We've always gone to deer calls. It's not like we flipped a switch one day and started going to these calls for deer. So, is there better? So, is there better? more development in the township in the last 10 years yes okay yeah they're moving they're moving i mean that's a big reason we're human deer interaction is my point yep more people the deer are moving they're on the move um that's that's what happens you know they have a three to four year lifespan in these deer um there's not a whole lot if any hunting that goes on in the township and new builds come in more development comes in and they get they get moved from one place to another place displaced and they're running across roads absolutely big reason are there local hot spots where they have more collisions than so that that's a very interesting question one thing i hadn't mentioned yet was what are we doing about it right um i looked at that data in conversations with oakland county road commission so we speak with oakland county road commission because one of the things i'm fighting for whether it works or not is to get more deer signs on our roadways um it at least jumps the attention of someone and it slows them down right that that's what we hope at least it slows them down it makes them more aware it's that reminder i kind of revert it back to if you're in a subdivision you know it's 25 miles per hour you know there should be kids playing but they put that kids playing sign out sometimes that is a good reminder when you're in a hurry of just hey i need to slow down a little bit so um back to your question looking at those hot spots there's really not okay it's very hard to pinpoint that they all happen at franklin and court and be very easy for me to come in and if that were the answer, tell you that. We don't see that. I do see a vast majority up Telegraph Road all the way across Square Lake quite a bit, but if I had to narrow a hotspot, it would be Franklin Road.

  41. the township and new builds come in more development comes in and they get they get moved from one place to another place displaced and they're running across roads absolutely big reason are there local hot spots where they have more collisions than so that that's a very interesting question one thing i hadn't mentioned yet was what are we doing about it right um i looked at that data in conversations with oakland county road commission so we speak with oakland county road commission because one of the things i'm fighting for whether it works or not is to get more deer signs on our roadways um it at least jumps the attention of someone and it slows them down right that that's what we hope at least it slows them down it makes them more aware it's that reminder i kind of revert it back to if you're in a subdivision you know it's 25 miles per hour you know there should be kids playing but they put that kids playing sign out sometimes that is a good reminder when you're in a hurry of just hey i need to slow down a little bit so um back to your question looking at those hot spots there's really not okay it's very hard to pinpoint that they all happen at franklin and court and be very easy for me to come in and if that were the answer, tell you that. We don't see that. I do see a vast majority up Telegraph Road all the way across Square Lake quite a bit, but if I had to narrow a hotspot, it would be Franklin Road. But it's hard for me to say that because we've only had nine on Franklin Road between Maple and Long Lake this year, right? Nine is a lot for that road. We've had more on Telegraph and more on Square Lake, but it's a bigger roadway. There's more likely for faster cars, more cars, and you're not gonna get deer signs up and down Telegraph Road. It's probably just very unlikely. We also go out with education. The education portion is not to avoid deer because you're not gonna avoid the deer, but how to manage that crash if you're going to impact a deer. We follow the state campaign of don't veer for deer. Brace yourself, don't slam on your brakes, but start to come to a stop and just make impact with that deer staying in your lane so you don't cause greater damage to you or someone else on the roadway. Do you, the sense that something can be done about this problem, if this is a problem, do you, is your senses that this is a growing problem and something that we should nip in the bud now? Or, cause there are ways to deal with it. I think it's... I don't know that, and some of them are...

  42. it would be Franklin Road. But it's hard for me to say that because we've only had nine on Franklin Road between Maple and Long Lake this year, right? Nine is a lot for that road. We've had more on Telegraph and more on Square Lake, but it's a bigger roadway. There's more likely for faster cars, more cars, and you're not gonna get deer signs up and down Telegraph Road. It's probably just very unlikely. We also go out with education. The education portion is not to avoid deer because you're not gonna avoid the deer, but how to manage that crash if you're going to impact a deer. We follow the state campaign of don't veer for deer. Brace yourself, don't slam on your brakes, but start to come to a stop and just make impact with that deer staying in your lane so you don't cause greater damage to you or someone else on the roadway. Do you, the sense that something can be done about this problem, if this is a problem, do you, is your senses that this is a growing problem and something that we should nip in the bud now? Or, cause there are ways to deal with it. I think it's... I don't know that, and some of them are... more extreme than others but I think there are ways of dealing with it of educating maybe I'm I'm naive that you know I see the expressions when I say we're gonna put in deer signs and the guys at the PD joke like are we gonna put hours on what time that the deer are gonna cross and how do they know where to cross at what signs but maybe you saw but I do believe that if we we get some some information out there some education out there some more awareness out there and we can slow some of these cars down I'm not talking about lowering our speed limit but if you're driving Franklin Road at O dark 30 maybe you don't need to be doing the speed limit maybe we drop it down to 40 and we're more alert for deer things like that we can avoid some of these yes at feeding and feeding is against the law so that is a police issue it's a state law the DNR has come down we don't allow baiting and in township witnesses that do they call the police they could yes and the DNR would probably handle that we would contact the DNR we would go out we would show them the law we would talk to them we would educate them on the law but that is an educational piece of not feeding the deer of course you know we do know that they're gonna come and eat natural food out of your gardens and and this and that I see it in Rochester Hills all the

  43. more extreme than others but I think there are ways of dealing with it of educating maybe I'm I'm naive that you know I see the expressions when I say we're gonna put in deer signs and the guys at the PD joke like are we gonna put hours on what time that the deer are gonna cross and how do they know where to cross at what signs but maybe you saw but I do believe that if we we get some some information out there some education out there some more awareness out there and we can slow some of these cars down I'm not talking about lowering our speed limit but if you're driving Franklin Road at O dark 30 maybe you don't need to be doing the speed limit maybe we drop it down to 40 and we're more alert for deer things like that we can avoid some of these yes at feeding and feeding is against the law so that is a police issue it's a state law the DNR has come down we don't allow baiting and in township witnesses that do they call the police they could yes and the DNR would probably handle that we would contact the DNR we would go out we would show them the law we would talk to them we would educate them on the law but that is an educational piece of not feeding the deer of course you know we do know that they're gonna come and eat natural food out of your gardens and and this and that I see it in Rochester Hills all the time and you know again it's data so we all know how statistics can be manipulated and Rochester Hills they state with with their data that the increase in deer signs, the increase in these billboard signs that say it's a high crash area for deer, has slowed people down, has decreased those crashes. Listen, if it stops five or six crashes, and the police department, we're on board with that. These are easy things that we can do that are cost effective, and if it lowers that crash rate, we're all about it, absolutely. It's not like drunk driving. We can't put extra patrol out there to look for deer, right? So we have to get creative, and if we can do it in a cost effective manner like that, we're definitely going to try. I've got a couple of questions, if I might. First of all, do you feel, do you think that the increase in the car crashes is because the deer herd is getting bigger, or the habitat is getting smaller, or both? Both. Okay, so one or the other, it's not that you don't think the deer herd is just starting to grow bigger than it was. Well, I think our herd here is beginning to grow. We're not the only developing community, right? So as our community develops, we still have

  44. out of your gardens and and this and that I see it in Rochester Hills all the time and you know again it's data so we all know how statistics can be manipulated and Rochester Hills they state with with their data that the increase in deer signs, the increase in these billboard signs that say it's a high crash area for deer, has slowed people down, has decreased those crashes. Listen, if it stops five or six crashes, and the police department, we're on board with that. These are easy things that we can do that are cost effective, and if it lowers that crash rate, we're all about it, absolutely. It's not like drunk driving. We can't put extra patrol out there to look for deer, right? So we have to get creative, and if we can do it in a cost effective manner like that, we're definitely going to try. I've got a couple of questions, if I might. First of all, do you feel, do you think that the increase in the car crashes is because the deer herd is getting bigger, or the habitat is getting smaller, or both? Both. Okay, so one or the other, it's not that you don't think the deer herd is just starting to grow bigger than it was. Well, I think our herd here is beginning to grow. We're not the only developing community, right? So as our community develops, we still have some good wooded areas. Other communities are also developing, and while those communities develop, these deer don't live in Bloomfield Township. They don't pay taxes. They cross the road. They cross Adams Road and go into Troy, right? It's the same thing with the Troy deer. They cross the road and come into Bloomfield. So we are, you know, I don't track them, but I would assume that as other areas develop, yeah, they are making their way north from Franklin or, you know, south from Pony. It's the truth of the matter. All right, one of the other things I wanted to ask is, it may not be in your, you may not have the answer to this, but do you, any disease, deer ticks, deer Lyme disease or anything, do you see any increase in that? I don't have any of that information. Okay, you have to ask. I know that they're, you know, they are a vehicle for those. I looked up some infectious disease stuff and we don't have a, there's no spiking of Lyme disease in the population. Okay, the only other question, when you talk about putting signs up, do you cross it, you just slow traffic down. Do you have to, because it's a road sign, do you have to have the county approve that? The road commission has to approve and put those signs in. So we haven't got the authority to put them in the ground. We can't, we cannot go out there. What we can do is we can find, if we can find safe locations to put our message boards out,

  45. to grow. We're not the only developing community, right? So as our community develops, we still have some good wooded areas. Other communities are also developing, and while those communities develop, these deer don't live in Bloomfield Township. They don't pay taxes. They cross the road. They cross Adams Road and go into Troy, right? It's the same thing with the Troy deer. They cross the road and come into Bloomfield. So we are, you know, I don't track them, but I would assume that as other areas develop, yeah, they are making their way north from Franklin or, you know, south from Pony. It's the truth of the matter. All right, one of the other things I wanted to ask is, it may not be in your, you may not have the answer to this, but do you, any disease, deer ticks, deer Lyme disease or anything, do you see any increase in that? I don't have any of that information. Okay, you have to ask. I know that they're, you know, they are a vehicle for those. I looked up some infectious disease stuff and we don't have a, there's no spiking of Lyme disease in the population. Okay, the only other question, when you talk about putting signs up, do you cross it, you just slow traffic down. Do you have to, because it's a road sign, do you have to have the county approve that? The road commission has to approve and put those signs in. So we haven't got the authority to put them in the ground. We can't, we cannot go out there. What we can do is we can find, if we can find safe locations to put our message boards out, we can go out and put message boards out. That's cost effective because we own two message boards to say, you know, hi, dear crash area. I see them quite a bit where I live out in Rochester Hills or the big MDOT ones. Ours are a little bit smaller because they double as speed trailers. If we can find a safe space to put those, we can deploy those. As for the actual permanent yellow signs you're thinking of, deer crossing, yes. Oakland County Road Commission would need to approve and do that. And we've requested that they look into the data and increase or give us any of those signs. What's the status of that request? As I was told, I believe it was Tuesday, that they were going to pull the data and see where they would be most useful. It wasn't a, it wasn't a, a hard yes, it wasn't a hard no, it was we'll look at the data and we will put them in where they're useful. My recommendation again were places like Franklin Road, right? I don't expect, if I went there and told the Road Commission I want 10 signs up telegraphed from 14 mile to Square Lake, they would probably laugh at me and tell me to leave. But on a place like Franklin Road, I think it's feasible and I think we'll have good luck with them. There's not a lot of pushback, it's not a huge request from them. This is where, again, there's almost a little bit of a tie-in to the road thing.

  46. if we can find safe locations to put our message boards out, we can go out and put message boards out. That's cost effective because we own two message boards to say, you know, hi, dear crash area. I see them quite a bit where I live out in Rochester Hills or the big MDOT ones. Ours are a little bit smaller because they double as speed trailers. If we can find a safe space to put those, we can deploy those. As for the actual permanent yellow signs you're thinking of, deer crossing, yes. Oakland County Road Commission would need to approve and do that. And we've requested that they look into the data and increase or give us any of those signs. What's the status of that request? As I was told, I believe it was Tuesday, that they were going to pull the data and see where they would be most useful. It wasn't a, it wasn't a, a hard yes, it wasn't a hard no, it was we'll look at the data and we will put them in where they're useful. My recommendation again were places like Franklin Road, right? I don't expect, if I went there and told the Road Commission I want 10 signs up telegraphed from 14 mile to Square Lake, they would probably laugh at me and tell me to leave. But on a place like Franklin Road, I think it's feasible and I think we'll have good luck with them. There's not a lot of pushback, it's not a huge request from them. This is where, again, there's almost a little bit of a tie-in to the road thing. 100%. Because one of the complaints that I brought up many times is that we can't, in the township, put up any of our own signage, we can't put speed limit signs, we can't put speed humps in, we can't put no right turn on, what do you call it, no through traffic. Can't do anything without the township saying that and their answer generally is no. Yep, I understand that full-heartedly. As a community relations officer I get calls all the time, you need to do this, you need to do that. And I have to, unfortunately, refer them a lot of times to the Oakland County Road Commission, you know, explaining to them it's not something that's feasible for us to do on our own. Now, I don't mean to throw them under the bus, we have a good relationship with them, they're open to discussions. I believe that it's going to happen, but maybe, again, I'm being naïve and hopeful. Next year? Like, when's it going to happen? These discussions, these discussions started in the beginning of November. I got pretty solid answers on Tuesday and I'm hoping to follow back tomorrow to see what their data says. When I spoke to them they wanted – to me to pull my data as well just to make sure that both of our data lined up. Again, there's 16 different reporting sites you can go to to look at crash data. I use all of our internal. They don't have access to our internal, so they're using Office of Highway Safety Planning,

  47. This is where, again, there's almost a little bit of a tie-in to the road thing. 100%. Because one of the complaints that I brought up many times is that we can't, in the township, put up any of our own signage, we can't put speed limit signs, we can't put speed humps in, we can't put no right turn on, what do you call it, no through traffic. Can't do anything without the township saying that and their answer generally is no. Yep, I understand that full-heartedly. As a community relations officer I get calls all the time, you need to do this, you need to do that. And I have to, unfortunately, refer them a lot of times to the Oakland County Road Commission, you know, explaining to them it's not something that's feasible for us to do on our own. Now, I don't mean to throw them under the bus, we have a good relationship with them, they're open to discussions. I believe that it's going to happen, but maybe, again, I'm being naïve and hopeful. Next year? Like, when's it going to happen? These discussions, these discussions started in the beginning of November. I got pretty solid answers on Tuesday and I'm hoping to follow back tomorrow to see what their data says. When I spoke to them they wanted – to me to pull my data as well just to make sure that both of our data lined up. Again, there's 16 different reporting sites you can go to to look at crash data. I use all of our internal. They don't have access to our internal, so they're using Office of Highway Safety Planning, TIA, different aspects of SEMCOG where the crashes are occurring. When you get an answer, could you let us know? Yes, as soon as I have an answer on when and where these signs are going to go up, I'll report that back through Mr. McCready to you guys or a memo to this committee on when and where they will be located. Okay, unfortunately, we allocated an hour for this meeting. But what you've told us has been very helpful. Okay, thank you. And thank you so much. Time out. Go ahead. May he ask a question? Yeah. All right, yeah. There you go. Well, Mr. Sully, your community relations. Yes. And so is there a concern in the community relative to the balance? The number of deer versus the optimal under all these circumstances? Being completely honest with you, the answer is no. I am not receiving calls at my desk that say we have a community issue with deer. That is not something that I am tackling on a day-to-day. And you'd be the one that would hear it? If they were calling the police to complain about the deer, I can guarantee you that every officer would jump at the option to send that to my desk. Are you dealing with – so you're not dealing with any experts such as the DNR?

  48. They don't have access to our internal, so they're using Office of Highway Safety Planning, TIA, different aspects of SEMCOG where the crashes are occurring. When you get an answer, could you let us know? Yes, as soon as I have an answer on when and where these signs are going to go up, I'll report that back through Mr. McCready to you guys or a memo to this committee on when and where they will be located. Okay, unfortunately, we allocated an hour for this meeting. But what you've told us has been very helpful. Okay, thank you. And thank you so much. Time out. Go ahead. May he ask a question? Yeah. All right, yeah. There you go. Well, Mr. Sully, your community relations. Yes. And so is there a concern in the community relative to the balance? The number of deer versus the optimal under all these circumstances? Being completely honest with you, the answer is no. I am not receiving calls at my desk that say we have a community issue with deer. That is not something that I am tackling on a day-to-day. And you'd be the one that would hear it? If they were calling the police to complain about the deer, I can guarantee you that every officer would jump at the option to send that to my desk. Are you dealing with – so you're not dealing with any experts such as the DNR? as to the issues involving urban deer? Where my discussions from the DNR go back years, we have an open line of discussion, but those have all revolved around hunting and issues that we've had with HOAs and portions of this township when it comes to hunting deer and why the township allows hunting, what the state ties our hands with hunting, what we can ban, what we can't ban, how we're going back to the roads, how we're different than cities and how the cities have different authorities to ban hunting. Those have been my discussions when it comes to deer and my discussions with the DNR, not the... Nuisance. Not the nuisance, not the eating of my plants, not the, you know, occasionally we get calls they're stuck in a backyard, they'll hop a fence they can't get out of. And there's no other township department that deals with deer, per se, other than the police department? No, the pickups, the accidents, the police department takes the majority of them. The ordinance department may. You know, we have ordinances based on fences, what fences we can or can't have due to how that impacts the wildlife, spiked fences and things like that. So they may take some complaints,

  49. as to the issues involving urban deer? Where my discussions from the DNR go back years, we have an open line of discussion, but those have all revolved around hunting and issues that we've had with HOAs and portions of this township when it comes to hunting deer and why the township allows hunting, what the state ties our hands with hunting, what we can ban, what we can't ban, how we're going back to the roads, how we're different than cities and how the cities have different authorities to ban hunting. Those have been my discussions when it comes to deer and my discussions with the DNR, not the... Nuisance. Not the nuisance, not the eating of my plants, not the, you know, occasionally we get calls they're stuck in a backyard, they'll hop a fence they can't get out of. And there's no other township department that deals with deer, per se, other than the police department? No, the pickups, the accidents, the police department takes the majority of them. The ordinance department may. You know, we have ordinances based on fences, what fences we can or can't have due to how that impacts the wildlife, spiked fences and things like that. So they may take some complaints, but I would think that the majority, yes, would come through the police department. And has there ever been a survey as to the number of deer per square mile or otherwise? Why? Why? Why? that you're aware of not when you pick up a carcass I mean if you've been educated as to turn bovine tuberculosis no no I have not I don't I don't speak for our animal welfare officers on the training they go through they're the ones that majority pick them up and dispose of them but yeah but no I have zero training I don't believe our police department does either okay thank you okay before you go I want to share with this with you and I'll give it to you okay this is the Rochester Hills dear data report yep and it nicely points out where all the strikes yeah or the carcasses have been picked up and you definitely see some areas because I'm intrigued by your thing with the signs because I think you're absolutely right a sign will just say well you know it's it doesn't hurt it's like the flashing side you're going 35 well okay I better slow down to 30 it doesn't hurt and there's definitely some areas that but

  50. So they may take some complaints, but I would think that the majority, yes, would come through the police department. And has there ever been a survey as to the number of deer per square mile or otherwise? Why? Why? Why? that you're aware of not when you pick up a carcass I mean if you've been educated as to turn bovine tuberculosis no no I have not I don't I don't speak for our animal welfare officers on the training they go through they're the ones that majority pick them up and dispose of them but yeah but no I have zero training I don't believe our police department does either okay thank you okay before you go I want to share with this with you and I'll give it to you okay this is the Rochester Hills dear data report yep and it nicely points out where all the strikes yeah or the carcasses have been picked up and you definitely see some areas because I'm intrigued by your thing with the signs because I think you're absolutely right a sign will just say well you know it's it doesn't hurt it's like the flashing side you're going 35 well okay I better slow down to 30 it doesn't hurt and there's definitely some areas that but we need to get this sort of information yeah I can pull that for you that's a map like I looked at okay good all right it crashes the map but it's very like there's not a giant cluster in one area or one intersection little but you can look up and down this is up and down the roads and say if we had them you know if they're all up and down like I said we saw nine or ten of them up Franklin Road it makes sense to do up Franklin Road when you see 20 of them up Telegraph you have to compare, you're comparing apples to oranges, right? So it makes more sense on Franklin than it does on Telegram. Now, if the Oak County Road Committee comes back and says, hey, where do you want these? That's something that I can 100% bring to this board or this committee and say, these are my maps and you guys have recommendations on that. I'd be happy to do that and then go back to the road commission. Or if the road commission says, Nick, you're right, we're going to put them on Franklin. I can still bring you that map and we can go back and request more. I have zero issues with that and all we can do is ask and I don't think it's too burdensome. You know, we're not re-engineering roads, so I don't think it's too burdensome on them either. Is there a reason why Oakland County would not want to put them up? I don't know that answer.

  51. slow down to 30 it doesn't hurt and there's definitely some areas that but we need to get this sort of information yeah I can pull that for you that's a map like I looked at okay good all right it crashes the map but it's very like there's not a giant cluster in one area or one intersection little but you can look up and down this is up and down the roads and say if we had them you know if they're all up and down like I said we saw nine or ten of them up Franklin Road it makes sense to do up Franklin Road when you see 20 of them up Telegraph you have to compare, you're comparing apples to oranges, right? So it makes more sense on Franklin than it does on Telegram. Now, if the Oak County Road Committee comes back and says, hey, where do you want these? That's something that I can 100% bring to this board or this committee and say, these are my maps and you guys have recommendations on that. I'd be happy to do that and then go back to the road commission. Or if the road commission says, Nick, you're right, we're going to put them on Franklin. I can still bring you that map and we can go back and request more. I have zero issues with that and all we can do is ask and I don't think it's too burdensome. You know, we're not re-engineering roads, so I don't think it's too burdensome on them either. Is there a reason why Oakland County would not want to put them up? I don't know that answer. You know, I would have to assume they have to look, is there a safe spot to put that sign? Do they not block driveways coming in and out? You know, I did travel Franklin Road looking at that. There's quite a few signs already. The foliage starts to come over into the road, so, you know, do they have to trim some of that back? Are they going to find locations? I don't know that answer. I can't imagine that there's a huge financial cost to assign northbound, assign southbound, and then to come hammer a pole in. That's my point. I don't believe so. And I don't believe there's a reason they would say no to us unless I said we want one in a subdivision where we haven't had a crash in 20 years. I think that's where they would be like, eh, we draw the line. Well, then you'd have 100% quality insurance from there. There you go. Way to get your statistics. There you are. All right, before we adjourn, though, I want to open this up to public comment on this subject, on deer, if anybody wants to talk about it. Then you have to come up here and give your name. You've got to do it formally. Name and address, and we have three minutes. My name is Richard Graham. I live in Meadowlake Farms, right around the Maple and Inkster. I kind of think I'm ground zero for the deer problem.

  52. You know, I would have to assume they have to look, is there a safe spot to put that sign? Do they not block driveways coming in and out? You know, I did travel Franklin Road looking at that. There's quite a few signs already. The foliage starts to come over into the road, so, you know, do they have to trim some of that back? Are they going to find locations? I don't know that answer. I can't imagine that there's a huge financial cost to assign northbound, assign southbound, and then to come hammer a pole in. That's my point. I don't believe so. And I don't believe there's a reason they would say no to us unless I said we want one in a subdivision where we haven't had a crash in 20 years. I think that's where they would be like, eh, we draw the line. Well, then you'd have 100% quality insurance from there. There you go. Way to get your statistics. There you are. All right, before we adjourn, though, I want to open this up to public comment on this subject, on deer, if anybody wants to talk about it. Then you have to come up here and give your name. You've got to do it formally. Name and address, and we have three minutes. My name is Richard Graham. I live in Meadowlake Farms, right around the Maple and Inkster. I kind of think I'm ground zero for the deer problem. And I've been talking to Mike McCready via email, and I talked to the Board of Trustees, I guess, in the spring because I was wondering what the township was doing about this problem. So I'm very glad that there's a committee now looking at these issues, and really that's all I would like to say. I mean, I have a lot I can say, but I think what you covered tonight with the deer vehicle incursions was good. I mean, that's just one aspect of it. But I'm here to tell you that, you know, despite not having statistics, I've lived here for 20 years, and the number of deer that I've seen, and I do back up to the Rouge River area, has increased tremendously. I mean, I think in the 20 years ago, I was... see maybe a half a dozen in a week and now i see a couple dozen a day so um it's unsustainable the deer population and that's what i really would like the township to look at because i

  53. I kind of think I'm ground zero for the deer problem. And I've been talking to Mike McCready via email, and I talked to the Board of Trustees, I guess, in the spring because I was wondering what the township was doing about this problem. So I'm very glad that there's a committee now looking at these issues, and really that's all I would like to say. I mean, I have a lot I can say, but I think what you covered tonight with the deer vehicle incursions was good. I mean, that's just one aspect of it. But I'm here to tell you that, you know, despite not having statistics, I've lived here for 20 years, and the number of deer that I've seen, and I do back up to the Rouge River area, has increased tremendously. I mean, I think in the 20 years ago, I was... see maybe a half a dozen in a week and now i see a couple dozen a day so um it's unsustainable the deer population and that's what i really would like the township to look at because i don't think it's going to get any better uh i think it's going to cause all kinds of new problems down the road um and um and yeah they're doing a lot of damage to my yard to my neighbor's yards you know they're taking the fun out of living in the community and um and just one other comment i mean i guess you talked about um development i mean really this area has been fully developed more or less for the last i don't know how many decades i mean i think um the deer population is just increasing and uh you know i i think that's what we need to look at is how we can stem this population and decrease it and um i guess that's really all i have to say so thank you very much appreciate it you know companies meetings regularly yeah no i'm very interested in good i'm interested in hearing and say what you have to say people have to say um about it so good thank you thank you very very much thank you all right i'm going to close the public hearing then public uh comment excuse me and bring it back to the commission committee excuse me you

  54. the deer population and that's what i really would like the township to look at because i don't think it's going to get any better uh i think it's going to cause all kinds of new problems down the road um and um and yeah they're doing a lot of damage to my yard to my neighbor's yards you know they're taking the fun out of living in the community and um and just one other comment i mean i guess you talked about um development i mean really this area has been fully developed more or less for the last i don't know how many decades i mean i think um the deer population is just increasing and uh you know i i think that's what we need to look at is how we can stem this population and decrease it and um i guess that's really all i have to say so thank you very much appreciate it you know companies meetings regularly yeah no i'm very interested in good i'm interested in hearing and say what you have to say people have to say um about it so good thank you thank you very very much thank you all right i'm going to close the public hearing then public uh comment excuse me and bring it back to the commission committee excuse me you John. Yeah, I wanted to thank Ms. Boland for addressing the research materials that she sent out. I think there was one other resource that I found that I don't believe was otherwise sent out, and that was the city of Kalamazoo, a study that was done in 2022. And I found that to be extremely informative by way of background and covered many different concerns and addressed so much. I have a copy of the same, and I may leave it with Ms. Boland to disseminate to the group. In addition, there too, I've been provided with discussing this with a friend, what is the whitetail deer and urban conflict policies and procedures of the Department of Natural Resources. And so I have a call into the DNR Wildlife Division. They're busy this week, obviously. We know gun season starts on Saturday. I don't know if this is the latest version, but I believe it is,

  55. John. Yeah, I wanted to thank Ms. Boland for addressing the research materials that she sent out. I think there was one other resource that I found that I don't believe was otherwise sent out, and that was the city of Kalamazoo, a study that was done in 2022. And I found that to be extremely informative by way of background and covered many different concerns and addressed so much. I have a copy of the same, and I may leave it with Ms. Boland to disseminate to the group. In addition, there too, I've been provided with discussing this with a friend, what is the whitetail deer and urban conflict policies and procedures of the Department of Natural Resources. And so I have a call into the DNR Wildlife Division. They're busy this week, obviously. We know gun season starts on Saturday. I don't know if this is the latest version, but I believe it is, and I'd like to also tender that for distribution to the committee members by way of background information. In other words, these concerns are referred. them as concerns as opposed to problems because we're beginning with that premise I have been looked at in many Michigan communities as well as outside the state of Michigan and and so there have been there's been a lot of science there's a lot of data various approaches and I think that by looking at at these types of materials will give us a lot of insight to hopefully ultimately provide to our township leaders a recommendation and ultimate in in an ultimate report thank you anybody else have any okay then we need a motion adjourned we can do the mission statement no we're gonna hold that off we will never run already so very complicated very common support and we're adjourned and I guess all right thank

  56. I don't know if this is the latest version, but I believe it is, and I'd like to also tender that for distribution to the committee members by way of background information. In other words, these concerns are referred. them as concerns as opposed to problems because we're beginning with that premise I have been looked at in many Michigan communities as well as outside the state of Michigan and and so there have been there's been a lot of science there's a lot of data various approaches and I think that by looking at at these types of materials will give us a lot of insight to hopefully ultimately provide to our township leaders a recommendation and ultimate in in an ultimate report thank you anybody else have any okay then we need a motion adjourned we can do the mission statement no we're gonna hold that off we will never run already so very complicated very common support and we're adjourned and I guess all right thank you