the-compact
Planning Commission Thursday, August 6, 2026 · 203 min

Bloomfield Township Planning Commission Meeting on August 5, 2026

Transcript

Click any timestamp to jump the video to that moment. Auto-transcribed; expect occasional errors on proper nouns.

  1. Good evening, everybody. The clock in the back might be off slightly, but it is 6.30. So on behalf of this Planning Commission and myself, we'd like to welcome everybody for being here. This is the August 5, 2026 meeting of the Planning Commission. For those of you that are not familiar, we're a seven-member body. We're appointed by the Bloomfield Township Board of Trustees. And it's pursuant to the Michigan Zoning Enabling Act and the Planning Commission. We serve as a recommending body to the Board of Trustees. And the Board of Trustees has final approval and authority on matters involving site plan review, special land uses, and land use development. So tonight, we have two public hearings. One is the application for the Hamlet Open Space Preservation Residential Development. And then we have a site plan for the Mulberry Square condominiums. So an affirmative vote of at least four members is required for the Planning Commission to take action tonight. So we have five members here. So four out of the five. And we hope this helps provide a better understanding of what you can expect at the meeting tonight. And we thank you for participating. So the first thing we'd like to do is, do we have a motion for the approval of the minutes from our July 2026 meeting? I move to approve the minutes. Second. Second. All in favor? Aye. Aye. So that passes. And our first public hearing is a site plan regarding the hamlet of Bloomfield Manor. Thank you. We have our leader to make the presentation. Good evening. My name is Andrea Schinecki. I am the director of the planning, building, and ordinance department here at Bloomfield Township. What we have before you is an application on behalf of Hamlet of Bloomfield Manor, LLC. They are before the planning commission in the township. They have submitted an application seeking to develop three existing parcels located currently at 350 West Big Beaver Road. Highlighted on your screen here shows the existing parcels as they are currently configured. The proposed development consists of three parcels totaling a total of 7.33 acres.

  2. And we hope this helps provide a better understanding of what you can expect at the meeting tonight. And we thank you for participating. So the first thing we'd like to do is, do we have a motion for the approval of the minutes from our July 2026 meeting? I move to approve the minutes. Second. Second. All in favor? Aye. Aye. So that passes. And our first public hearing is a site plan regarding the hamlet of Bloomfield Manor. Thank you. We have our leader to make the presentation. Good evening. My name is Andrea Schinecki. I am the director of the planning, building, and ordinance department here at Bloomfield Township. What we have before you is an application on behalf of Hamlet of Bloomfield Manor, LLC. They are before the planning commission in the township. They have submitted an application seeking to develop three existing parcels located currently at 350 West Big Beaver Road. Highlighted on your screen here shows the existing parcels as they are currently configured. The proposed development consists of three parcels totaling a total of 7.33 acres. The property is bordered on the east side by the city of Birmingham's Birmingham Manor's nature preserve, on the south and the west by single-family residential homes, and on the north of West Big Beaver Road with the city of Birmingham's Springdale Park and Golf course located beyond the roadway. Back in 2002, Bloomfield Township adopted essentially a PUD option within our ordinance to allow for... applicant to, under certain provisions, offer an application to the township for final acceptance and approval or consideration by the township board. The purpose back in 2002 was pursuant to the Public Act 177 of 2001, which at that time, townships were mandated to offer an open space preservation option within their ordinance. The result is a residential cluster development that keeps required 50% open space. The objective of the open space preservation are to cluster new homes on a portion of the land and then surround the homes built with permanently preserved open space without allowing

  3. The proposed development consists of three parcels totaling a total of 7.33 acres. The property is bordered on the east side by the city of Birmingham's Birmingham Manor's nature preserve, on the south and the west by single-family residential homes, and on the north of West Big Beaver Road with the city of Birmingham's Springdale Park and Golf course located beyond the roadway. Back in 2002, Bloomfield Township adopted essentially a PUD option within our ordinance to allow for... applicant to, under certain provisions, offer an application to the township for final acceptance and approval or consideration by the township board. The purpose back in 2002 was pursuant to the Public Act 177 of 2001, which at that time, townships were mandated to offer an open space preservation option within their ordinance. The result is a residential cluster development that keeps required 50% open space. The objective of the open space preservation are to cluster new homes on a portion of the land and then surround the homes built with permanently preserved open space without allowing more homes than to be allowed under traditional zoning. So the important part there is what I just read is in regards to not being able, they have to demonstrate as part of the requirement within the ordinance. The applicant is charged with demonstrating that they can develop the subject parcels in a configuration showing buildable envelopes. When I say a buildable envelope, that is the area in which a home could be constructed in a manner that it does show the required 40-foot front yard setback, 16 feet on both side yards, and 35 feet in the rear yard. But the applicant presented as what we consider their parallel plan. And, again, the parallel plan is intended to demonstrate the density that would be permitted under traditional zoning. In this instance, the property is zoned R3 single-family residential. Within the R3 single-family residential, the minimum lot size for a new home site in that zoning district is 22,000 square feet, lot area with sewer, with a minimum of 130 feet lot width. So what the applicant has done is provided us with this parallel plan.

  4. land and then surround the homes built with permanently preserved open space without allowing more homes than to be allowed under traditional zoning. So the important part there is what I just read is in regards to not being able, they have to demonstrate as part of the requirement within the ordinance. The applicant is charged with demonstrating that they can develop the subject parcels in a configuration showing buildable envelopes. When I say a buildable envelope, that is the area in which a home could be constructed in a manner that it does show the required 40-foot front yard setback, 16 feet on both side yards, and 35 feet in the rear yard. But the applicant presented as what we consider their parallel plan. And, again, the parallel plan is intended to demonstrate the density that would be permitted under traditional zoning. In this instance, the property is zoned R3 single-family residential. Within the R3 single-family residential, the minimum lot size for a new home site in that zoning district is 22,000 square feet, lot area with sewer, with a minimum of 130 feet lot width. So what the applicant has done is provided us with this parallel plan. On this parallel plan, they are showing a total of eight, sorry, nine, nine parcels. In my staff report, I highlighted that because the parallel plan requires that the plan shows lots that would not require any variances and would be permitted to be built by rights. In conversations with the applicant towards the end of last week and also addressed within my staff report, I indicated that the parallel plan, that there's actually two parcels that are shown on the parallel plan in which they could not be developed by rights. In the sense where they're showing that there's a natural feature encroachment that is located on the right side of that access drive in the cul-de-sac. So by means of us determining that those would not be buildable by rights, they have... they've revised their parallel plan to show now less lots, but the less lots in their revised parallel plan, whoops, I didn't include it, I thought I did. I don't have a copy of that, but I'm sure the applicant does.

  5. So what the applicant has done is provided us with this parallel plan. On this parallel plan, they are showing a total of eight, sorry, nine, nine parcels. In my staff report, I highlighted that because the parallel plan requires that the plan shows lots that would not require any variances and would be permitted to be built by rights. In conversations with the applicant towards the end of last week and also addressed within my staff report, I indicated that the parallel plan, that there's actually two parcels that are shown on the parallel plan in which they could not be developed by rights. In the sense where they're showing that there's a natural feature encroachment that is located on the right side of that access drive in the cul-de-sac. So by means of us determining that those would not be buildable by rights, they have... they've revised their parallel plan to show now less lots, but the less lots in their revised parallel plan, whoops, I didn't include it, I thought I did. I don't have a copy of that, but I'm sure the applicant does. So the point of the matter is, is their parallel plan has been decreased from the amount of lots you're seeing on the screen, okay? So usually when we get an open space application, they're saying, okay, by law we can construct eight homes, and we're gonna construct eight homes using a cluster. In this instance, they're demonstrating they can actually build, in my estimation, because again, I think there's two lots on here that are not buildable, that they could construct up to seven lots, okay? Conventionally under traditional zoning, okay? So I'm taking the two off there and saying that a parallel plan, and when I say built by right, that means within the classification of the minimum lot area required within the R3 district. So by using that density allotment, okay, the applicant then is asked to, with under the provisions of our ordinance, they are asked, under the open space conditions, they are to show their actual site plan. This is their proposed site plan, showing a total of seven parcels, six, okay? I'm having a really hard time with numbers tonight. I apologize. They're totaling six lots. As you can see,

  6. but I'm sure the applicant does. So the point of the matter is, is their parallel plan has been decreased from the amount of lots you're seeing on the screen, okay? So usually when we get an open space application, they're saying, okay, by law we can construct eight homes, and we're gonna construct eight homes using a cluster. In this instance, they're demonstrating they can actually build, in my estimation, because again, I think there's two lots on here that are not buildable, that they could construct up to seven lots, okay? Conventionally under traditional zoning, okay? So I'm taking the two off there and saying that a parallel plan, and when I say built by right, that means within the classification of the minimum lot area required within the R3 district. So by using that density allotment, okay, the applicant then is asked to, with under the provisions of our ordinance, they are asked, under the open space conditions, they are to show their actual site plan. This is their proposed site plan, showing a total of seven parcels, six, okay? I'm having a really hard time with numbers tonight. I apologize. They're totaling six lots. As you can see, see the proposal shows one proposed curb cut to access from Manor Road into the currently vacant property and then to terminate in a single road in a cul-de-sac configuration. I do want to note that currently there is a curb cut that is located to the very north of the site. You can see it highlighted just in the north of the hatching area that there isn't a curb cut that exists off Big Beaver Road. To be conscientious of any construction impacts or any disruption throughout the course of construction, the applicant has stated in their submittal that they are going to be directing construction traffic from the Big Beaver Road access until which time that access drive would no longer be able to be used for the construction purposes. But that is their intention is to mitigate any of the construction traffic by using that curb cut. So what you have highlighted on your screen in the hatched-in area demonstrates the required 50% area that is required to be preserved in perpetuity.

  7. see the proposal shows one proposed curb cut to access from Manor Road into the currently vacant property and then to terminate in a single road in a cul-de-sac configuration. I do want to note that currently there is a curb cut that is located to the very north of the site. You can see it highlighted just in the north of the hatching area that there isn't a curb cut that exists off Big Beaver Road. To be conscientious of any construction impacts or any disruption throughout the course of construction, the applicant has stated in their submittal that they are going to be directing construction traffic from the Big Beaver Road access until which time that access drive would no longer be able to be used for the construction purposes. But that is their intention is to mitigate any of the construction traffic by using that curb cut. So what you have highlighted on your screen in the hatched-in area demonstrates the required 50% area that is required to be preserved in perpetuity. And how do we do that? Well we do that because in our ordinance it requires that a conservation easement would have to be. It would have to be drafted and recorded, and that would be forever deemed as open space to preserve the surrounding areas. And the open space on the screen here is identified as that hatched-in area. So with that, the board this evening is being asked to consider, take public comment, to hear from the applicant, as well as make considerations under what conditions that this consideration and application would be accepted and reviewed by the township board. So this is a little bit different in the sense where it's not your typical site plan application. What you have before you is a concept drawing that is essentially indicating how they choose to develop the property. It will ultimately be up to the determination of the township board. If the parallel plan is acceptable, as well as if the proposed density and open space preservation requirements are met.

  8. 50% area that is required to be preserved in perpetuity. And how do we do that? Well we do that because in our ordinance it requires that a conservation easement would have to be. It would have to be drafted and recorded, and that would be forever deemed as open space to preserve the surrounding areas. And the open space on the screen here is identified as that hatched-in area. So with that, the board this evening is being asked to consider, take public comment, to hear from the applicant, as well as make considerations under what conditions that this consideration and application would be accepted and reviewed by the township board. So this is a little bit different in the sense where it's not your typical site plan application. What you have before you is a concept drawing that is essentially indicating how they choose to develop the property. It will ultimately be up to the determination of the township board. If the parallel plan is acceptable, as well as if the proposed density and open space preservation requirements are met. Additionally, as part of this proposal, there is a, they will be extending a water line down Manor Road from Brookdale. That will be a direct bore underneath underground as to prevent any disruption or any tree removal and hoping to preserve any disruptions along the way for that portion of the work. But with that, we do have shown on the site plan that is being proposed. that you can see on the page of this platform but it will always be a good point. That's the point of the fact that you're going to see a total of the six lots, identifying that each lot can meet that required 22,000-square-foot lot area with sewer with a minimum 130-foot lot, and also as well as showing the buildable envelopes, which shows that they can also meet the required setbacks. I do want to note that under the Open Space Preservation Plan, the six-clustered homes, there are wetlands that are located on the site, specifically in the, if you're looking on the screen, forgive me for not, well, actually, there is a North Arrow, so that would be to the northeast. There are, Jeff Niswander Environmental, they did have an opportunity to go out and review and do a wetland verification.

  9. and open space preservation requirements are met. Additionally, as part of this proposal, there is a, they will be extending a water line down Manor Road from Brookdale. That will be a direct bore underneath underground as to prevent any disruption or any tree removal and hoping to preserve any disruptions along the way for that portion of the work. But with that, we do have shown on the site plan that is being proposed. that you can see on the page of this platform but it will always be a good point. That's the point of the fact that you're going to see a total of the six lots, identifying that each lot can meet that required 22,000-square-foot lot area with sewer with a minimum 130-foot lot, and also as well as showing the buildable envelopes, which shows that they can also meet the required setbacks. I do want to note that under the Open Space Preservation Plan, the six-clustered homes, there are wetlands that are located on the site, specifically in the, if you're looking on the screen, forgive me for not, well, actually, there is a North Arrow, so that would be to the northeast. There are, Jeff Niswander Environmental, they did have an opportunity to go out and review and do a wetland verification. They did note that there's mitigation is noted for the proposed impacts to each of the wetlands, A1, B1, and B2. The township's wetland consultant, Niswander, provided a review of the parallel plan and Open Space Plan in your letter, which is included in your packet, dated June 25, 2026. I do want to note that they did make a comment in their review, noting that if there are any natural feature setbacks that were to encroach into a buildable envelope, that that would be something that would require variance. However, because they are seeking to reorganize their parallel plan, I now will have a parallel plan. that is not going to show any encroachments in that natural feature setback. So that issue has been addressed through the new parallel plan that's been provided by the applicant. I do also want to say that this is only the first stop of this proposal. This, because of impacts to wetlands, the township does have their own independent wetland permit that's required. So at this time, the applicant has put on notice that they need to submit a wetland board application. The wetland board and the wetland hearing will certainly have more detailed information.

  10. and do a wetland verification. They did note that there's mitigation is noted for the proposed impacts to each of the wetlands, A1, B1, and B2. The township's wetland consultant, Niswander, provided a review of the parallel plan and Open Space Plan in your letter, which is included in your packet, dated June 25, 2026. I do want to note that they did make a comment in their review, noting that if there are any natural feature setbacks that were to encroach into a buildable envelope, that that would be something that would require variance. However, because they are seeking to reorganize their parallel plan, I now will have a parallel plan. that is not going to show any encroachments in that natural feature setback. So that issue has been addressed through the new parallel plan that's been provided by the applicant. I do also want to say that this is only the first stop of this proposal. This, because of impacts to wetlands, the township does have their own independent wetland permit that's required. So at this time, the applicant has put on notice that they need to submit a wetland board application. The wetland board and the wetland hearing will certainly have more detailed information. And also, hopefully, there are some minor adjustments that need to be addressed from the latest Niswander report prior to that wetland board hearing. And I do want to say that as of last Thursday, I did receive an update correspondence from the applicant indicating how they choose to address the comments from Niswander. but that will still be something that will be forthcoming when it comes before the wetland board. I do want to note that as part of the requirement of open space preservation, there is to be a public access or an opportunity for people to utilize the property, specifically the ordinance states that it really is meant to be for the residents of the development. However, the applicant has and will be seeking to get a cross-access easement agreement to allow for the continuation of the use of the existing pathway that actually is located on their property. Thank you. Thank you. And that is part of what has previously been used as within the Birmingham, in the city of Birmingham as part of their manor nature preserve. So I do want to note there in the bottom right-hand corner of that slide, you can see that there is that pathway that extends to the south and then heads slightly towards the east of

  11. The wetland board and the wetland hearing will certainly have more detailed information. And also, hopefully, there are some minor adjustments that need to be addressed from the latest Niswander report prior to that wetland board hearing. And I do want to say that as of last Thursday, I did receive an update correspondence from the applicant indicating how they choose to address the comments from Niswander. but that will still be something that will be forthcoming when it comes before the wetland board. I do want to note that as part of the requirement of open space preservation, there is to be a public access or an opportunity for people to utilize the property, specifically the ordinance states that it really is meant to be for the residents of the development. However, the applicant has and will be seeking to get a cross-access easement agreement to allow for the continuation of the use of the existing pathway that actually is located on their property. Thank you. Thank you. And that is part of what has previously been used as within the Birmingham, in the city of Birmingham as part of their manor nature preserve. So I do want to note there in the bottom right-hand corner of that slide, you can see that there is that pathway that extends to the south and then heads slightly towards the east of the site. And then that connects to the remaining pathway within that preserve. So I do want to note that the applicant has stated that they do intend to do that. So as to not interrupt and still to allow access for residents to utilize that. So that was something that certainly is not required by ordinance, but that is something that they have chosen to do as to have less impact on the existing usage of that open space. Again under the open space preservation, this plan did go before our various departments and consultants for review. Highlighted on your screen, we do show the turn radii from the largest fire truck. Our fire marshal does review and we do have to provide, the applicant does have to provide how our largest fire truck is able to safely access the homes within the development. That has been provided and stated within the July 29th memo. The fire department has no objections with the proposal. They note that their review of the site plan consisted of fire access, circulation and emergency response and they do not have any issues related to that. This means that they want springs to thetır him to consume and the Alarm.

  12. is that pathway that extends to the south and then heads slightly towards the east of the site. And then that connects to the remaining pathway within that preserve. So I do want to note that the applicant has stated that they do intend to do that. So as to not interrupt and still to allow access for residents to utilize that. So that was something that certainly is not required by ordinance, but that is something that they have chosen to do as to have less impact on the existing usage of that open space. Again under the open space preservation, this plan did go before our various departments and consultants for review. Highlighted on your screen, we do show the turn radii from the largest fire truck. Our fire marshal does review and we do have to provide, the applicant does have to provide how our largest fire truck is able to safely access the homes within the development. That has been provided and stated within the July 29th memo. The fire department has no objections with the proposal. They note that their review of the site plan consisted of fire access, circulation and emergency response and they do not have any issues related to that. This means that they want springs to thetır him to consume and the Alarm. The fire department has no objections to the proposal. And then we also have a landscape plan that was provided by the applicant. The engineering, the review, this was reviewed by our landscape architect, Duell and Associates, and you have a copy of their memo dated July 8th, 2026, talking about the tree removal and requirement for a tree preservation permit, which would be required as part of the, if it was approved, that would be a requirement of the township. The applicant does have some tree removal and replacement that will be required, which is all indicated and highlighted within that July 8th, 2026 report from Duell. Additionally, environmental and engineering services, our EESD did review the plans July 15th, 2026. They had stated that they were, they had some concerns regarding the way the design of the outlet of one of the stormwater runoff to discharge into a city of Birmingham storm outlet design.

  13. The fire department has no objections to the proposal. And then we also have a landscape plan that was provided by the applicant. The engineering, the review, this was reviewed by our landscape architect, Duell and Associates, and you have a copy of their memo dated July 8th, 2026, talking about the tree removal and requirement for a tree preservation permit, which would be required as part of the, if it was approved, that would be a requirement of the township. The applicant does have some tree removal and replacement that will be required, which is all indicated and highlighted within that July 8th, 2026 report from Duell. Additionally, environmental and engineering services, our EESD did review the plans July 15th, 2026. They had stated that they were, they had some concerns regarding the way the design of the outlet of one of the stormwater runoff to discharge into a city of Birmingham storm outlet design. At this time, and the applicant can speak to this, they've been having conversations with the city of Birmingham's engineering department. They feel confident that Birmingham will work with them to allow for their stormwater. to discharge but however being cross-jurisdictional that is something that would be required so I just want to just want to make that very clear that that would be obviously a condition and a requirement because the stormwater design as presented and as reviewed by both HRC as well as our internal engineering department note that the current design would also be conditioned on that availability for the city of Birmingham to allow that so I do want to state that that would be something that would be required as part of the as part of the site plan if it were to go and get approved before the township board additionally the applicant has provided some just sample elevations of a proposed design aesthetic that would be a part of the bloomfield manor hamlet of bloomfield manor development just to show the the general architecture quality design scope of what they anticipate would be a style of homing home that

  14. of one of the stormwater runoff to discharge into a city of Birmingham storm outlet design. At this time, and the applicant can speak to this, they've been having conversations with the city of Birmingham's engineering department. They feel confident that Birmingham will work with them to allow for their stormwater. to discharge but however being cross-jurisdictional that is something that would be required so I just want to just want to make that very clear that that would be obviously a condition and a requirement because the stormwater design as presented and as reviewed by both HRC as well as our internal engineering department note that the current design would also be conditioned on that availability for the city of Birmingham to allow that so I do want to state that that would be something that would be required as part of the as part of the site plan if it were to go and get approved before the township board additionally the applicant has provided some just sample elevations of a proposed design aesthetic that would be a part of the bloomfield manor hamlet of bloomfield manor development just to show the the general architecture quality design scope of what they anticipate would be a style of homing home that would be provided within this development so with that you are being asked this evening to consider the parallel plan as well as the the proposed plan hear public comment hear from the applicant I can certainly answer any questions as well that you may have and I also want to note that there are a list of eight items that if so the Planning Commission were to entertain a motion this evening to forward this on for consideration by the township Board, and I just want to review the eight suggested conditions that have been provided within your packet. One would be compliance with the requirements of the Township Departments, compliance with the requirements of the Township's Wetland Consultant, including approval by the Township's Wetland Board prior to Township Board, compliance with the requirements of the Township's Landscape Architect, compliance with the requirements of the Township's Traffic Engineer. They also did provide a traffic study, and you can see within your staff report the result of the review of the traffic study. Compliance with all regulatory and legislative bodies, including local, state, and federal, so that will definitely encompass that city approval from Birmingham. Construction traffic being directed off Big Beaver to alleviate impacts to the adjacent

  15. design scope of what they anticipate would be a style of homing home that would be provided within this development so with that you are being asked this evening to consider the parallel plan as well as the the proposed plan hear public comment hear from the applicant I can certainly answer any questions as well that you may have and I also want to note that there are a list of eight items that if so the Planning Commission were to entertain a motion this evening to forward this on for consideration by the township Board, and I just want to review the eight suggested conditions that have been provided within your packet. One would be compliance with the requirements of the Township Departments, compliance with the requirements of the Township's Wetland Consultant, including approval by the Township's Wetland Board prior to Township Board, compliance with the requirements of the Township's Landscape Architect, compliance with the requirements of the Township's Traffic Engineer. They also did provide a traffic study, and you can see within your staff report the result of the review of the traffic study. Compliance with all regulatory and legislative bodies, including local, state, and federal, so that will definitely encompass that city approval from Birmingham. Construction traffic being directed off Big Beaver to alleviate impacts to the adjacent neighborhood. A cross-access easement agreement for the shared utilization of an existing woodchip path between the subject site and the adjacent property owner. And lastly, submittal of a conservation easement to be reviewed by the Township's attorney prior to the Township Board. And I do want to say that we do understand that there are some sensitive natural features on the site, and as part of that conservation easement language, we would intend that there would be appropriate marking and signage as to notify residents who were moved into the development and anybody who may visit the development that those areas are preserved and should not be trespassed upon or walked across because the goal is... that we were intended to preserve that area. So it would be demarcated appropriately to preserve any impacts into the natural features setback. But there's no plans to develop in the wetland to directly impact a wetland permit in terms of for construction. But because we do have to deal with some mitigation based on our report from Niswander, and that will also, like I said, be addressed before the wetland board.

  16. Construction traffic being directed off Big Beaver to alleviate impacts to the adjacent neighborhood. A cross-access easement agreement for the shared utilization of an existing woodchip path between the subject site and the adjacent property owner. And lastly, submittal of a conservation easement to be reviewed by the Township's attorney prior to the Township Board. And I do want to say that we do understand that there are some sensitive natural features on the site, and as part of that conservation easement language, we would intend that there would be appropriate marking and signage as to notify residents who were moved into the development and anybody who may visit the development that those areas are preserved and should not be trespassed upon or walked across because the goal is... that we were intended to preserve that area. So it would be demarcated appropriately to preserve any impacts into the natural features setback. But there's no plans to develop in the wetland to directly impact a wetland permit in terms of for construction. But because we do have to deal with some mitigation based on our report from Niswander, and that will also, like I said, be addressed before the wetland board. I'm happy to answer any questions you may have. Thank you very much. I think if the developer or the representative had anything to add, we'd like to hear that before we deliberate. Great. And then after that, we'll open it up to the public as well. Thank you. Hi. You can speak at that one if you wouldn't mind. All right. Yeah. Good evening. My name is Howard Fingerroot. I am the managing partner of a company called Sylvan Crest Partners. We are the applicant to the Hamlet. I just want to kind of introduce myself and the team I brought with me. I brought a team, so if there's any questions that you may have, I have Nikki Jeffries, who's the director of development for my company. Nikki's been with me for 10 years, and we've done developments in Michigan and Florida and Texas and all over, and she's the director of development there. And I brought with me... I brought with... a gentleman named Matt Bush with Atwell. He's our civil engineer and planner. Atwell is a Michigan-based company, but they have 60 offices across the country, so it's a very strong engineering and planning company that we have here. And then I have our land use attorney,

  17. before the wetland board. I'm happy to answer any questions you may have. Thank you very much. I think if the developer or the representative had anything to add, we'd like to hear that before we deliberate. Great. And then after that, we'll open it up to the public as well. Thank you. Hi. You can speak at that one if you wouldn't mind. All right. Yeah. Good evening. My name is Howard Fingerroot. I am the managing partner of a company called Sylvan Crest Partners. We are the applicant to the Hamlet. I just want to kind of introduce myself and the team I brought with me. I brought a team, so if there's any questions that you may have, I have Nikki Jeffries, who's the director of development for my company. Nikki's been with me for 10 years, and we've done developments in Michigan and Florida and Texas and all over, and she's the director of development there. And I brought with me... I brought with... a gentleman named Matt Bush with Atwell. He's our civil engineer and planner. Atwell is a Michigan-based company, but they have 60 offices across the country, so it's a very strong engineering and planning company that we have here. And then I have our land use attorney, Alan Green from Dykema, should you have any questions regarding any legal aspects of it. Just by way of introduction, and then I'm going to bring Nikki up here and she can kind of walk through the program. But by way of introduction, I've been doing residential development in southeast Michigan for close to 30 years old, 30 years old, for 30 years. I recognize you don't think I'm old enough, but I am. And pretty much I've done developments in all of the five counties in the Detroit MSA. I've done one other one in Bloomfield Township probably about 10 years ago or so, and it was also an open space plan. It was called Legacy Hills up on Squirrel Road, just south of Long Lake, next to the school there, Sacred Heart. So I've been through this process before. I just want to say just one thing, sort of the philosophy of what I've been doing and the philosophy of our company. And there's just a few things, right? We, you know, we play by the rules. We try to understand the rule book, play by the rules. We talk to the municipalities. We come to an agreement. I say, okay, this is what we're going to do. And then we do it. And

  18. engineering and planning company that we have here. And then I have our land use attorney, Alan Green from Dykema, should you have any questions regarding any legal aspects of it. Just by way of introduction, and then I'm going to bring Nikki up here and she can kind of walk through the program. But by way of introduction, I've been doing residential development in southeast Michigan for close to 30 years old, 30 years old, for 30 years. I recognize you don't think I'm old enough, but I am. And pretty much I've done developments in all of the five counties in the Detroit MSA. I've done one other one in Bloomfield Township probably about 10 years ago or so, and it was also an open space plan. It was called Legacy Hills up on Squirrel Road, just south of Long Lake, next to the school there, Sacred Heart. So I've been through this process before. I just want to say just one thing, sort of the philosophy of what I've been doing and the philosophy of our company. And there's just a few things, right? We, you know, we play by the rules. We try to understand the rule book, play by the rules. We talk to the municipalities. We come to an agreement. I say, okay, this is what we're going to do. And then we do it. And And by doing that and that philosophy, I found when I come back, it works really well. And I've done multiple projects in multiple communities, again, over a few decades in town here. And we're very proud of the developments that we've done. A year ago, March, so we're coming up on a year and a half, we proposed this project. And we sat down with the staff and the, I believe, the township attorney was there and the township supervisor was there. And we said, by the rule book, we believe we can do nine lots. And the question is whether it's eight or nine lots, but we'll concede to eight lots. As a parallel plan, we can do eight lots and those lots would meet the ordinance, the R3 ordinance of the township. And they looked at us and they said, you know, when you do it of this nature, we would like you to consider, or more than consider, we'd like you to do it in one of three ways. Either do it using the PUD ordinance that the township has, using the cluster ordinance that the township has, or using the open space ordinance. So we went back, and again, we're talking a year and a half ago, and we analyzed each of the ordinance, and we found that the one that really was only applicable to this property,

  19. And by doing that and that philosophy, I found when I come back, it works really well. And I've done multiple projects in multiple communities, again, over a few decades in town here. And we're very proud of the developments that we've done. A year ago, March, so we're coming up on a year and a half, we proposed this project. And we sat down with the staff and the, I believe, the township attorney was there and the township supervisor was there. And we said, by the rule book, we believe we can do nine lots. And the question is whether it's eight or nine lots, but we'll concede to eight lots. As a parallel plan, we can do eight lots and those lots would meet the ordinance, the R3 ordinance of the township. And they looked at us and they said, you know, when you do it of this nature, we would like you to consider, or more than consider, we'd like you to do it in one of three ways. Either do it using the PUD ordinance that the township has, using the cluster ordinance that the township has, or using the open space ordinance. So we went back, and again, we're talking a year and a half ago, and we analyzed each of the ordinance, and we found that the one that really was only applicable to this property, based on certain criteria, was to use the open space. So we said, we're going to do this, and the open space requires, as Andrea said, to preserve 50% of this. site in a natural in a natural state and that's what we did also in Legacy Hills 50% is preserved and instead of doing nine lots or eight lots whatever the maximum was we looked at and we said we'll do six lots we want to keep the lots at a certain size you can build houses that are consistent with the neighborhood so we reduced it from we'll call it eight to six and said okay we want to do open space and we'll do six lots there and we created this plan to do that so that's kind of the history and we've gone we've gone through a lot of reviews engineering reviews and wetland reviews and traffic reviews and I'm delighted now after about a year and a half that we're in front of you I would say about three or four months ago a part of the process was to go to the design review board where there were three members of the township board there and we went through this this project and we got a unanimous vote to come and visit you tonight so having said all that I want to bring

  20. and we found that the one that really was only applicable to this property, based on certain criteria, was to use the open space. So we said, we're going to do this, and the open space requires, as Andrea said, to preserve 50% of this. site in a natural in a natural state and that's what we did also in Legacy Hills 50% is preserved and instead of doing nine lots or eight lots whatever the maximum was we looked at and we said we'll do six lots we want to keep the lots at a certain size you can build houses that are consistent with the neighborhood so we reduced it from we'll call it eight to six and said okay we want to do open space and we'll do six lots there and we created this plan to do that so that's kind of the history and we've gone we've gone through a lot of reviews engineering reviews and wetland reviews and traffic reviews and I'm delighted now after about a year and a half that we're in front of you I would say about three or four months ago a part of the process was to go to the design review board where there were three members of the township board there and we went through this this project and we got a unanimous vote to come and visit you tonight so having said all that I want to bring Nikki up here and she can go through some of the details of it which perhaps will help when the neighbors come up and if they have questions about specific things thank you do we have our presentation the slides that I sent this morning what I have my computer too if you it's not on a thumb drive now but I can send you a link up with that I wish you would have I can run downstairs and just send it trapped into a file is there like a web browser on here I could like send the link to myself I don't know if I can get on the

  21. and we got a unanimous vote to come and visit you tonight so having said all that I want to bring Nikki up here and she can go through some of the details of it which perhaps will help when the neighbors come up and if they have questions about specific things thank you do we have our presentation the slides that I sent this morning what I have my computer too if you it's not on a thumb drive now but I can send you a link up with that I wish you would have I can run downstairs and just send it trapped into a file is there like a web browser on here I could like send the link to myself I don't know if I can get on the control over that that's why it's going to be a condition it's a condition yeah it's like any go ahead and get started I'll go downstairs and I'll get on my computer and I'll drop it in just go ahead and get started make sure you send it to me right now okay are you sure I can't open how do I do an internet on here here like I just a web browser Okay. I just did it to my Gmail. What if I log in my Gmail real quick and grab it out there? Sorry. Here. I can remember that.

  22. is there like a web browser on here I could like send the link to myself I don't know if I can get on the control over that that's why it's going to be a condition it's a condition yeah it's like any go ahead and get started I'll go downstairs and I'll get on my computer and I'll drop it in just go ahead and get started make sure you send it to me right now okay are you sure I can't open how do I do an internet on here here like I just a web browser Okay. I just did it to my Gmail. What if I log in my Gmail real quick and grab it out there? Sorry. Here. I can remember that. Okay. Do you have it? Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Of course I can. Yeah, you got it. You got it? Yeah, she's going to put it on the thumb track. Okay, thanks. It wasn't wanting to open my email on here. Sorry, board. Thank you. Okay, you got it? Yep.

  23. Okay. Do you have it? Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Of course I can. Yeah, you got it. You got it? Yeah, she's going to put it on the thumb track. Okay, thanks. It wasn't wanting to open my email on here. Sorry, board. Thank you. Okay, you got it? Yep. You feel safer now? There we go. Right here? Yeah. Okay, perfect. Now we just need it on the screen. There you go. Okay. Sorry about that. Sorry, we had a quick technology issue, but I appreciate your patience. So I am Nikki Jeffries, as Howard mentioned. I'm just going to click to the next slide here. Maybe? Use the point, the arrows. Oh, here? Yeah. See, on mine it's slideshow from the beginning. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. It's weird. It's like not... It's weird. It's the time, you ready? We have air. There's a little bit weird. Okay. I'm not going to be in there. I'm going to be air. Well, I will, we're going to have air air. Well, I'll just let it all go. Thank you.

  24. You feel safer now? There we go. Right here? Yeah. Okay, perfect. Now we just need it on the screen. There you go. Okay. Sorry about that. Sorry, we had a quick technology issue, but I appreciate your patience. So I am Nikki Jeffries, as Howard mentioned. I'm just going to click to the next slide here. Maybe? Use the point, the arrows. Oh, here? Yeah. See, on mine it's slideshow from the beginning. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. It's weird. It's like not... It's weird. It's the time, you ready? We have air. There's a little bit weird. Okay. I'm not going to be in there. I'm going to be air. Well, I will, we're going to have air air. Well, I'll just let it all go. Thank you. Because what it's showing on here is, let's see, why isn't that showing up on the screen? Hmm. I'm done here. Hmm? Oh. Technology guy? Yeah. It's so weird. Oh, there you go. Okay. Now it's working. That's weird. I guess you just have to stare at it long enough. I'll just use the arrows. Okay. Okay, sorry about that. No problem. Howard kind of covered our first slide here, our first team slide, so I'll just go on to introduce the site. I'll try to be quick because Andrea talked about it a lot already. The site is 7.3 acres, three existing lots from an old plat called Bloomfield Manor, located north of Manor Road, south of Big Beaver. We're basically at the southwest corner of Big Beaver and Adams Road. We have the Manor Park, the city of Birmingham Manor Park on our eastern side, the railroad just beyond that, and then a rehab facility beyond that. Big Beaver to our north with the golf course.

  25. Because what it's showing on here is, let's see, why isn't that showing up on the screen? Hmm. I'm done here. Hmm? Oh. Technology guy? Yeah. It's so weird. Oh, there you go. Okay. Now it's working. That's weird. I guess you just have to stare at it long enough. I'll just use the arrows. Okay. Okay, sorry about that. No problem. Howard kind of covered our first slide here, our first team slide, so I'll just go on to introduce the site. I'll try to be quick because Andrea talked about it a lot already. The site is 7.3 acres, three existing lots from an old plat called Bloomfield Manor, located north of Manor Road, south of Big Beaver. We're basically at the southwest corner of Big Beaver and Adams Road. We have the Manor Park, the city of Birmingham Manor Park on our eastern side, the railroad just beyond that, and then a rehab facility beyond that. Big Beaver to our north with the golf course. And then single family really to our west and south. And directly to our south on Shepherd Bush are some homes that are actually within the city of Birmingham. The master plan future land use for this property is single family residence. And now to the center of현. But if you're interested in the city of Birmingham, you're interested in the city of Birmingham Manor Park. The existing zoning, as we mentioned, as Andrea mentioned, is R3 residential, and we are proposing to do an open space preservation plan here. As both Howard and Andrea talked about, we have been looking at this for over a year and a half. We actually came to the city, or I'm sorry, the township back in late 2024. We met with the supervisor, the planner. I think Andrea and Patty was here at that time, and township attorney was there as well, to talk through a site plan for this site. At that time, we came in with these eight lots that met the R3 zoning, which is the 22,000 square foot lot, 130 foot wide. There was no dedicated open space. I think everybody in the township level really thought we needed to look at one of the cluster options that Howard mentioned. There's three of them in the zoning ordinance.

  26. Big Beaver to our north with the golf course. And then single family really to our west and south. And directly to our south on Shepherd Bush are some homes that are actually within the city of Birmingham. The master plan future land use for this property is single family residence. And now to the center of현. But if you're interested in the city of Birmingham, you're interested in the city of Birmingham Manor Park. The existing zoning, as we mentioned, as Andrea mentioned, is R3 residential, and we are proposing to do an open space preservation plan here. As both Howard and Andrea talked about, we have been looking at this for over a year and a half. We actually came to the city, or I'm sorry, the township back in late 2024. We met with the supervisor, the planner. I think Andrea and Patty was here at that time, and township attorney was there as well, to talk through a site plan for this site. At that time, we came in with these eight lots that met the R3 zoning, which is the 22,000 square foot lot, 130 foot wide. There was no dedicated open space. I think everybody in the township level really thought we needed to look at one of the cluster options that Howard mentioned. There's three of them in the zoning ordinance. The PUD, which is a planned unit development, the residential cluster option, or the open space preservation. After we looked to them and looked through the ordinance, we realized that the open space preservation made most sense here because of the fact that there are neighboring properties that we would like to buffer. There's existing natural features, such as the wetlands that we've talked about, and I'll talk about more, the wooded areas. I guess. which are really all over the site but really focused on the eastern side and towards that existing nature preserve park so we felt the open space plan really made a lot of sense for this for this project to build residential but try to buffer kind of the existing lots and existing uses nearby so as we mentioned a few times we had to come we had to come up with a parallel plan how many lots can be built on this property the one Andrea showed was our original nine-lot plan there's been a little bit of change with the wetlands over the last few months as we have worked with the township consultant nice wander our consultant at well so the nine-lot parallel plan was changed to eight very

  27. There's three of them in the zoning ordinance. The PUD, which is a planned unit development, the residential cluster option, or the open space preservation. After we looked to them and looked through the ordinance, we realized that the open space preservation made most sense here because of the fact that there are neighboring properties that we would like to buffer. There's existing natural features, such as the wetlands that we've talked about, and I'll talk about more, the wooded areas. I guess. which are really all over the site but really focused on the eastern side and towards that existing nature preserve park so we felt the open space plan really made a lot of sense for this for this project to build residential but try to buffer kind of the existing lots and existing uses nearby so as we mentioned a few times we had to come we had to come up with a parallel plan how many lots can be built on this property the one Andrea showed was our original nine-lot plan there's been a little bit of change with the wetlands over the last few months as we have worked with the township consultant nice wander our consultant at well so the nine-lot parallel plan was changed to eight very recently so that's why there was some confusion I apologize about that this is the parallel plan all of these eight lots meet the R3 zoning requirements the 22 thousand square feet lots but we don't have any wetlands or natural feature setbacks that are within the building envelopes so there was a little jiggering around from that nine-lot plan so the eight lots is what we could build here per current ordinance per the current zoning so as Howard mentioned we we wanted to keep a larger lot size without going smaller to fit the eight lots so we came up with this plan this is the six that plan that we've been looking at the space requirement if 50% is being met all of that is shown in the hatched area so all of that hatched area is not part of any lot it will be placed in a in a conservation easement for perpetuity so it can't be built on in the future we intend to keep the existing trees that are that are there now and in some cases there are not trees so we will be adding trees before we place the conservation easement as you can see the lots are still a good size they're they're a

  28. consultant at well so the nine-lot parallel plan was changed to eight very recently so that's why there was some confusion I apologize about that this is the parallel plan all of these eight lots meet the R3 zoning requirements the 22 thousand square feet lots but we don't have any wetlands or natural feature setbacks that are within the building envelopes so there was a little jiggering around from that nine-lot plan so the eight lots is what we could build here per current ordinance per the current zoning so as Howard mentioned we we wanted to keep a larger lot size without going smaller to fit the eight lots so we came up with this plan this is the six that plan that we've been looking at the space requirement if 50% is being met all of that is shown in the hatched area so all of that hatched area is not part of any lot it will be placed in a in a conservation easement for perpetuity so it can't be built on in the future we intend to keep the existing trees that are that are there now and in some cases there are not trees so we will be adding trees before we place the conservation easement as you can see the lots are still a good size they're they're a minimum of 18,000 square feet they range from 18,000 to 20,500 so they're a little bit smaller than the normal R3 lot but the trade-off is that we get this 50% open space which is 3.65 acres we have these natural buffers all around the site on all sides and we are not touching wetlands we are keeping a lot of the wooded area and really hopefully providing neighbors a view of trees rather than new houses so if I move to the next slide here this is the colored site plan it gives you a little bit better idea of what this might look like once it's once it's built the six lots on 7.33 acres so our density is about 0.8 units an acre three and over three and a half acres of open space that will be done in a conservation even never built on we're going to keep the existing trees within the open space and then add additional landscaping where we can specifically around lot six down there which is in the lower left-hand side

  29. easement as you can see the lots are still a good size they're they're a minimum of 18,000 square feet they range from 18,000 to 20,500 so they're a little bit smaller than the normal R3 lot but the trade-off is that we get this 50% open space which is 3.65 acres we have these natural buffers all around the site on all sides and we are not touching wetlands we are keeping a lot of the wooded area and really hopefully providing neighbors a view of trees rather than new houses so if I move to the next slide here this is the colored site plan it gives you a little bit better idea of what this might look like once it's once it's built the six lots on 7.33 acres so our density is about 0.8 units an acre three and over three and a half acres of open space that will be done in a conservation even never built on we're going to keep the existing trees within the open space and then add additional landscaping where we can specifically around lot six down there which is in the lower left-hand side there that is a pretty open area right now it's the one spot on the site on the existing site that's not really wooded so there's going to be some additional beefed up landscaping going in there which you can see on this plan to help buffer both the street and the and the neighbor that's directly to our east there sorry to our west so this does call out the distances from our building from our proposed building envelopes to the neighbors there's two neighboring houses there directly to our e to our west and then there are a few houses looks like six there directly to our south that are in the city of Birmingham so we really focus on providing buffers from these houses and figuring out a way to give extra room between the nearest house to them and and where they might be where their sight lanes might be so we really looked at that as well as providing open space and not touching those trees on the east side towards the towards the park and helping to preserve that existing park the wetlands that are in there as well as the trailway that's used

  30. specifically around lot six down there which is in the lower left-hand side there that is a pretty open area right now it's the one spot on the site on the existing site that's not really wooded so there's going to be some additional beefed up landscaping going in there which you can see on this plan to help buffer both the street and the and the neighbor that's directly to our east there sorry to our west so this does call out the distances from our building from our proposed building envelopes to the neighbors there's two neighboring houses there directly to our e to our west and then there are a few houses looks like six there directly to our south that are in the city of Birmingham so we really focus on providing buffers from these houses and figuring out a way to give extra room between the nearest house to them and and where they might be where their sight lanes might be so we really looked at that as well as providing open space and not touching those trees on the east side towards the towards the park and helping to preserve that existing park the wetlands that are in there as well as the trailway that's used you can see on here in the brown so we as Andrea mentioned we're going to give a cross-access easement to the city of Birmingham so that trail can remain it kind of runs along our our eastern property line and then there's other access points that continue to the east into the city's park just talk quickly about utilities and how these lots are going to be served we're proposing a cul-de-sac a curb cut off of Manor Road on the north side there it's right at the intersection of Warwick and Manor we're gonna put in a 28 wide asphalt road with curb and gutter it's going to be a private road with the cul-de-sac as you can see there is no water main in this area of the Manor Road homes right now it's approximately 1,500 feet to the west at the intersection of intersection of Manor and Brookdale so we are going to directional drill a water main down Manor Road to the to this new cul-de-sac and then the water main will run up as you can see here in the blue run up the cul-de-sac three hydrants will be installed along Manor Road which will also provide fire protection for the

  31. you can see on here in the brown so we as Andrea mentioned we're going to give a cross-access easement to the city of Birmingham so that trail can remain it kind of runs along our our eastern property line and then there's other access points that continue to the east into the city's park just talk quickly about utilities and how these lots are going to be served we're proposing a cul-de-sac a curb cut off of Manor Road on the north side there it's right at the intersection of Warwick and Manor we're gonna put in a 28 wide asphalt road with curb and gutter it's going to be a private road with the cul-de-sac as you can see there is no water main in this area of the Manor Road homes right now it's approximately 1,500 feet to the west at the intersection of intersection of Manor and Brookdale so we are going to directional drill a water main down Manor Road to the to this new cul-de-sac and then the water main will run up as you can see here in the blue run up the cul-de-sac three hydrants will be installed along Manor Road which will also provide fire protection for the homes that are there as well the existing homes and then obviously there will be hydrants that will be installed on the new cul-de-sac sanitary sewer connection is going to be at the northwest corner of the site. There is a sewer that was put in years ago under Big Beaver there, so we'll tie in at an existing manhole up there that's on our property. The sanitary sewer here is shown in orange. It will run kind of south and east and avoid existing trees that are on the site and then cut down the road where the individual homes will tie in via lead. Storm sewer is shown in green. We'll run down the road or up the road if you're looking at it this way. And then we'll tie into a new proposed detention pond that's at the north side of the site that you can see there. That detention pond will then outlet. There's been a little change to the plans in the last week. We're trying to avoid wetland and stream impact. There is a small stream on the northeast side of our site that ties into the wetlands, and that's where the site drains naturally now.

  32. installed along Manor Road which will also provide fire protection for the homes that are there as well the existing homes and then obviously there will be hydrants that will be installed on the new cul-de-sac sanitary sewer connection is going to be at the northwest corner of the site. There is a sewer that was put in years ago under Big Beaver there, so we'll tie in at an existing manhole up there that's on our property. The sanitary sewer here is shown in orange. It will run kind of south and east and avoid existing trees that are on the site and then cut down the road where the individual homes will tie in via lead. Storm sewer is shown in green. We'll run down the road or up the road if you're looking at it this way. And then we'll tie into a new proposed detention pond that's at the north side of the site that you can see there. That detention pond will then outlet. There's been a little change to the plans in the last week. We're trying to avoid wetland and stream impact. There is a small stream on the northeast side of our site that ties into the wetlands, and that's where the site drains naturally now. So the plan is we will outlet the detention pond to an upland area that's not in the stream, so we won't have impact to the stream as far as construction. And then that will outlet into the stream, which then makes its way to the city of Birmingham storm sewer that Andrea mentioned. We have submitted the storm outlet plans to the city of Birmingham. They have their engineering department. has reviewed them we received one comment letter which we've already addressed and we're expecting to hear back from them soon as of today this this property drains that way and so post attention we will have 40% less flow going that way because of the detention pond so the city engineer is not expecting any issues but we do have to go through the process and we do understand that will be a condition of any possible approval we do receive from the township tonight or in the future so that's kind of the plan for the storm water outlet again it's an existing storm sewer that's taking taking drainage from this property as of now it will continue the plan is to continue to take drainage from this property but in a post-detention state so that there will

  33. and that's where the site drains naturally now. So the plan is we will outlet the detention pond to an upland area that's not in the stream, so we won't have impact to the stream as far as construction. And then that will outlet into the stream, which then makes its way to the city of Birmingham storm sewer that Andrea mentioned. We have submitted the storm outlet plans to the city of Birmingham. They have their engineering department. has reviewed them we received one comment letter which we've already addressed and we're expecting to hear back from them soon as of today this this property drains that way and so post attention we will have 40% less flow going that way because of the detention pond so the city engineer is not expecting any issues but we do have to go through the process and we do understand that will be a condition of any possible approval we do receive from the township tonight or in the future so that's kind of the plan for the storm water outlet again it's an existing storm sewer that's taking taking drainage from this property as of now it will continue the plan is to continue to take drainage from this property but in a post-detention state so that there will be actually less flow going there than there is now and finally the walking trail that we've mentioned it runs along our eastern property line that will be maintained it will be remain we will not be we're not planning to touch it as part of any construction we are doing and we will provide cross-access easement to the city landscape plan this is just a color of colored up version of the landscape plan that's in the in the plans that you guys already have we we do have to take some trees down as you can imagine for the road and a few of the utilities you Those trees that come down, we do have to replace per the township requirements, and we want to replace as many as we can on site. Obviously, because of all the wooded area that's going to remain, there's probably going to be, or we know there is going to be, a deficiency. So we will then pay into the township tree fund for any trees that we are deficient on. We really want as many trees to remain as possible on the site that makes sense.

  34. drainage from this property but in a post-detention state so that there will be actually less flow going there than there is now and finally the walking trail that we've mentioned it runs along our eastern property line that will be maintained it will be remain we will not be we're not planning to touch it as part of any construction we are doing and we will provide cross-access easement to the city landscape plan this is just a color of colored up version of the landscape plan that's in the in the plans that you guys already have we we do have to take some trees down as you can imagine for the road and a few of the utilities you Those trees that come down, we do have to replace per the township requirements, and we want to replace as many as we can on site. Obviously, because of all the wooded area that's going to remain, there's probably going to be, or we know there is going to be, a deficiency. So we will then pay into the township tree fund for any trees that we are deficient on. We really want as many trees to remain as possible on the site that makes sense. Obviously, if there's a dead tree or something, we will take it down. But we want, at the start of construction, typically all the trees that are to come down are marked. The thought is that we will go out there with landscape architect, anyone from the township that's interested, any neighbors that are interested, and make sure we can save any tree that we possibly can. The plan is also to not take down the trees on the lots until the time that the lots are developed. So there will be some of those trees that will remain at the time of site construction that will eventually come down during the home construction. So I just want to explain that because there was some, we talked about it a little bit at the neighborhood meeting. This is an entry rendering showing the, kind of the entryway just. north just north of the the homes on shepherd bush that are directly to our south in city of Birmingham as you can see the back that those are trees that remain there is a lot of trees there I've been I was out there last week we plan to enhance that a lot of the a lot of the trees that

  35. We really want as many trees to remain as possible on the site that makes sense. Obviously, if there's a dead tree or something, we will take it down. But we want, at the start of construction, typically all the trees that are to come down are marked. The thought is that we will go out there with landscape architect, anyone from the township that's interested, any neighbors that are interested, and make sure we can save any tree that we possibly can. The plan is also to not take down the trees on the lots until the time that the lots are developed. So there will be some of those trees that will remain at the time of site construction that will eventually come down during the home construction. So I just want to explain that because there was some, we talked about it a little bit at the neighborhood meeting. This is an entry rendering showing the, kind of the entryway just. north just north of the the homes on shepherd bush that are directly to our south in city of Birmingham as you can see the back that those are trees that remain there is a lot of trees there I've been I was out there last week we plan to enhance that a lot of the a lot of the trees that are going in the buffer areas are 14 foot pines so they will be 14 foot at planting and then obviously grow in four to five years you can see that lower that lower view of what it's going to look like we did originally have a monument sign on here which when we were at design review board we talked about a little bit since then we've removed it from the plans because that was something that the nearby residents did not want so that is why there is no sign on here now because that's a little bit different than what we saw before you guys saw before as Andrea showed these are conceptual ideas of homes these are going to be you know four to five thousand square foot custom homes that will builders will buy a lot and build on or a person can buy a lot and build on so we expect that they will be very nice we expect that there will be architectural standards as part of our our condo docks that they will have to adhere to and be reviewed before any homes are built this is you you

  36. I've been I was out there last week we plan to enhance that a lot of the a lot of the trees that are going in the buffer areas are 14 foot pines so they will be 14 foot at planting and then obviously grow in four to five years you can see that lower that lower view of what it's going to look like we did originally have a monument sign on here which when we were at design review board we talked about a little bit since then we've removed it from the plans because that was something that the nearby residents did not want so that is why there is no sign on here now because that's a little bit different than what we saw before you guys saw before as Andrea showed these are conceptual ideas of homes these are going to be you know four to five thousand square foot custom homes that will builders will buy a lot and build on or a person can buy a lot and build on so we expect that they will be very nice we expect that there will be architectural standards as part of our our condo docks that they will have to adhere to and be reviewed before any homes are built this is you you I'm not going to read the entire slide here, but I did want to bring up that we did hold a meeting with the neighbors. It was back in May. There was quite a few residents showed up, and I know a lot of them are here tonight as well. The Bloomfield Manor HOA president organized it, and so there was many people from the Bloomfield Manor HOA, but there was multiple people from Birmingham that live on Shepherd Bush and nearby as well. We answered a lot of questions. We tried to listen to all of their concerns. This is kind of a high-level view of some things that were brought up at the meeting. I'll run through them quickly because I know they're probably going to be brought up here at our public hearing shortly. Traffic was something we talked about. There's concern about, understandably, both traffic generated from our development and traffic generated from construction. Overall, the traffic for our development is going to be very minor with six homes. We did have a traffic study completed that's been reviewed by your traffic consultants. It's resulting in a less than 1% increase in traffic on Big Beaver and Adams, and they conclude there's no significant traffic impact.

  37. I'm not going to read the entire slide here, but I did want to bring up that we did hold a meeting with the neighbors. It was back in May. There was quite a few residents showed up, and I know a lot of them are here tonight as well. The Bloomfield Manor HOA president organized it, and so there was many people from the Bloomfield Manor HOA, but there was multiple people from Birmingham that live on Shepherd Bush and nearby as well. We answered a lot of questions. We tried to listen to all of their concerns. This is kind of a high-level view of some things that were brought up at the meeting. I'll run through them quickly because I know they're probably going to be brought up here at our public hearing shortly. Traffic was something we talked about. There's concern about, understandably, both traffic generated from our development and traffic generated from construction. Overall, the traffic for our development is going to be very minor with six homes. We did have a traffic study completed that's been reviewed by your traffic consultants. It's resulting in a less than 1% increase in traffic on Big Beaver and Adams, and they conclude there's no significant traffic impact. The change in traffic would not be discernible. Seven trips on average AM peak hour and nine trips on average in the PM peak hour, so it's relatively little traffic. The end goal inôngquel video is about up to down 50 years when that's going to be added to the existing roads. Construction traffic is something that we agree can be difficult to deal with, and that's why we came up with the idea to use the Big Beaver Entrance, the curb cut that exists today. So that's been added to our plans. That is our plan. We can add signage, et cetera, on that driveway if we get to construction. So that would be the plan, that during construction, all construction traffic would have to use Big Beaver. We're fine if the cul-de-sac needs to be barricaded off, but at some point once we have a CFO, it would need to be usable. We talked about the construction timeline, landscaping sequencing. The residents want the landscaping, proposed landscaping to be planted as soon as possible, which we understand. And we plan to do that, but obviously grading and utility work would need to be completed first,

  38. and Adams, and they conclude there's no significant traffic impact. The change in traffic would not be discernible. Seven trips on average AM peak hour and nine trips on average in the PM peak hour, so it's relatively little traffic. The end goal inôngquel video is about up to down 50 years when that's going to be added to the existing roads. Construction traffic is something that we agree can be difficult to deal with, and that's why we came up with the idea to use the Big Beaver Entrance, the curb cut that exists today. So that's been added to our plans. That is our plan. We can add signage, et cetera, on that driveway if we get to construction. So that would be the plan, that during construction, all construction traffic would have to use Big Beaver. We're fine if the cul-de-sac needs to be barricaded off, but at some point once we have a CFO, it would need to be usable. We talked about the construction timeline, landscaping sequencing. The residents want the landscaping, proposed landscaping to be planted as soon as possible, which we understand. And we plan to do that, but obviously grading and utility work would need to be completed first, and then we would do the plantings, other than the street trees, which would go in at time of home construction. But all the other buffer trees, that can go in as soon as site work is complete. The tree preservation, that was a topic as well. Obviously, they want the open space and the natural buffer, so we want to work with the township, the residents, and we want to save as many trees as possible, like I mentioned. And we'll be planning to save all the trees that are within the... ... I'll see you next time. within the open space. The water main installation, generally, I think people are like the idea, or some like the idea of a new water main running down the road, but are concerned about construction, understandably. That's why we're planning to directionally drill the water main to really reduce the impact for everybody, and we will maintain traffic on Manor Road while that's happening. So that should be generally not a horrible construction experience. We're not going to rip up the road that it will be drilled. So that should be generally a small construction window to get that done, and then three hydrants will be installed along the Manor Road frontage.

  39. And we plan to do that, but obviously grading and utility work would need to be completed first, and then we would do the plantings, other than the street trees, which would go in at time of home construction. But all the other buffer trees, that can go in as soon as site work is complete. The tree preservation, that was a topic as well. Obviously, they want the open space and the natural buffer, so we want to work with the township, the residents, and we want to save as many trees as possible, like I mentioned. And we'll be planning to save all the trees that are within the... ... I'll see you next time. within the open space. The water main installation, generally, I think people are like the idea, or some like the idea of a new water main running down the road, but are concerned about construction, understandably. That's why we're planning to directionally drill the water main to really reduce the impact for everybody, and we will maintain traffic on Manor Road while that's happening. So that should be generally not a horrible construction experience. We're not going to rip up the road that it will be drilled. So that should be generally a small construction window to get that done, and then three hydrants will be installed along the Manor Road frontage. That would be available for fire protection. I kind of touched on the monument signage. That was something that was brought up, that they prefer no monument signs, so we have taken it from the plans, and no street lighting is being proposed, but that was a question. Architectural control, I already talked about. We're going to have architectural requirements incorporated into the condo bylaws. We do have to create a homeowners association for this new project by state law. I do understand that this property is in the Bloomfield Manor HOA, or could be, and if desired by the HOA, they can still pay into the Bloomfield Manor HOA as well. But they will have a separate HOA for this new Hamlet project. and lastly the an item which I'm sure is going to be brought up again tonight is that there is a old well as part of that old 110 year old plat there is a deed restriction we we feel for the most part that we're meeting it but we're building single-family homes on the on the lots where we're increasing the lots which I do understand the township doesn't enforce private deed restrictions and

  40. That would be available for fire protection. I kind of touched on the monument signage. That was something that was brought up, that they prefer no monument signs, so we have taken it from the plans, and no street lighting is being proposed, but that was a question. Architectural control, I already talked about. We're going to have architectural requirements incorporated into the condo bylaws. We do have to create a homeowners association for this new project by state law. I do understand that this property is in the Bloomfield Manor HOA, or could be, and if desired by the HOA, they can still pay into the Bloomfield Manor HOA as well. But they will have a separate HOA for this new Hamlet project. and lastly the an item which I'm sure is going to be brought up again tonight is that there is a old well as part of that old 110 year old plat there is a deed restriction we we feel for the most part that we're meeting it but we're building single-family homes on the on the lots where we're increasing the lots which I do understand the township doesn't enforce private deed restrictions and our property is zoned R3 so which would allow eight lots on the property and we're building six so we do have our attorney here I expected this is going to be brought up more and we can talk more about that as we get through the meeting I think that's it for me right now so I will I'm happy to if that's what you prefer Alan they'd like you to speak first about the deed restriction before the public comment I think it'd be helpful before the public comment might answer any some questions at the board here's thank you I'm Alan Green I'm also resident of the township so live a couple miles away I I it was not my to provide a legal opinion with regard to the deed restriction but I can't say a few things about it because it came up so I've looked at it and you know it's an interesting situation that you have it's a hundred and ten year old plat and when

  41. do understand the township doesn't enforce private deed restrictions and our property is zoned R3 so which would allow eight lots on the property and we're building six so we do have our attorney here I expected this is going to be brought up more and we can talk more about that as we get through the meeting I think that's it for me right now so I will I'm happy to if that's what you prefer Alan they'd like you to speak first about the deed restriction before the public comment I think it'd be helpful before the public comment might answer any some questions at the board here's thank you I'm Alan Green I'm also resident of the township so live a couple miles away I I it was not my to provide a legal opinion with regard to the deed restriction but I can't say a few things about it because it came up so I've looked at it and you know it's an interesting situation that you have it's a hundred and ten year old plat and when this plat was done there weren't there wasn't any zoning there wasn't a railroad there wasn't any utilities and the deed restriction wanted to make sure that these were single-family lots so it talks about you know a single house on a single-family lot and and since that time there's been a huge amount of change that's gone on here the deed restriction does not have any specific limitation on the size of the lots and if you look through the neighborhood the lots are of varying size these particular parcels or lots are some of the largest ones and then actually they were made larger because one of the main roads in subdivision was vacated some years ago I mean the road that went right by this property was vacated creating larger Lots the the park that's now a public park of the city of Birmingham is part of this plat those were single-family residential Lots there are three residential Lots in this subdivision there are now that are now a was assisted living facility but it's really a medical facility today that we talked about there are another three Lots in the subdivision that are kind

  42. interesting situation that you have it's a hundred and ten year old plat and when this plat was done there weren't there wasn't any zoning there wasn't a railroad there wasn't any utilities and the deed restriction wanted to make sure that these were single-family lots so it talks about you know a single house on a single-family lot and and since that time there's been a huge amount of change that's gone on here the deed restriction does not have any specific limitation on the size of the lots and if you look through the neighborhood the lots are of varying size these particular parcels or lots are some of the largest ones and then actually they were made larger because one of the main roads in subdivision was vacated some years ago I mean the road that went right by this property was vacated creating larger Lots the the park that's now a public park of the city of Birmingham is part of this plat those were single-family residential Lots there are three residential Lots in this subdivision there are now that are now a was assisted living facility but it's really a medical facility today that we talked about there are another three Lots in the subdivision that are kind there's a condominium project and there's eight condominiums and two buildings so there's been a there's been a lot of material changes to this development most of the deed restriction litigation that I've been involved in or seen usually involves claims that these changes are so sufficient that we could now put in a non-residential use if you look at the vast majority of the law in Michigan the cases that come to the court not all of them but a lot of them is where people are trying to put in an office building on residential property and they want to do it because they say that the uses have changed sufficiently enough that we no longer have to follow this must be in the township the Red Square Lake on Telegraph there was a massive lawsuit years ago involving those homes that are now built right on Telegraph those are the last lots of a subdivision that was in the interior there and the they had litigation trying to argue that we should be able to put an office building there because Telegraph's unsafe everything's changed it's widened and oh by the way there was an office use approved it turned out in the case I reread this case recently that the office use was somebody built a home and then use it for some kind of home

  43. there's a condominium project and there's eight condominiums and two buildings so there's been a there's been a lot of material changes to this development most of the deed restriction litigation that I've been involved in or seen usually involves claims that these changes are so sufficient that we could now put in a non-residential use if you look at the vast majority of the law in Michigan the cases that come to the court not all of them but a lot of them is where people are trying to put in an office building on residential property and they want to do it because they say that the uses have changed sufficiently enough that we no longer have to follow this must be in the township the Red Square Lake on Telegraph there was a massive lawsuit years ago involving those homes that are now built right on Telegraph those are the last lots of a subdivision that was in the interior there and the they had litigation trying to argue that we should be able to put an office building there because Telegraph's unsafe everything's changed it's widened and oh by the way there was an office use approved it turned out in the case I reread this case recently that the office use was somebody built a home and then use it for some kind of home office or change it to home office that was the office use they were using but that's the kind of case that that we're talking about here so we have a situation where there's been material changes But no one's trying to say we're not going to do the residential use. So these are single-family residential lots. There's nothing that says you can't subdivide or split a lot. I can't remember the lot number, but there is one lot that was split into two. It was actually one of the smallest lots in the subdivision. It was split into two, and now you have two homes on that. So I don't think that the restrictive covenant really applies in this sense to bar what we're doing. We're building single-family homes on single-family condominium units. And for those who actually do development or know that, no one does Platts anymore. I mean, I think it's been 20 years since I've been involved in a Platte. Everything is a site condo. That's just the way we call them. So we call them units. And that's how development occurs today. And I guess the last thing I would say is that, again, we think this development is fully compatible with the Platte.

  44. the office use was somebody built a home and then use it for some kind of home office or change it to home office that was the office use they were using but that's the kind of case that that we're talking about here so we have a situation where there's been material changes But no one's trying to say we're not going to do the residential use. So these are single-family residential lots. There's nothing that says you can't subdivide or split a lot. I can't remember the lot number, but there is one lot that was split into two. It was actually one of the smallest lots in the subdivision. It was split into two, and now you have two homes on that. So I don't think that the restrictive covenant really applies in this sense to bar what we're doing. We're building single-family homes on single-family condominium units. And for those who actually do development or know that, no one does Platts anymore. I mean, I think it's been 20 years since I've been involved in a Platte. Everything is a site condo. That's just the way we call them. So we call them units. And that's how development occurs today. And I guess the last thing I would say is that, again, we think this development is fully compatible with the Platte. With the houses that are in the neighborhood, with the lot sizes in the neighborhood, we're not violating the 110-year-old restrictive covenants. But I do want to say that it's really not for the township to enforce that. I mean, to be fair. I mean, that's something for us to discuss. And there's case law to that effect. I mean, it's a private restrictive covenant. And there's one case on this. You know, I'm a lawyer, so I like to talk about it. cases. There's one case on this involving Shelby Township. Someone sued Shelby, I think it was Shelby Township, because they said you approved a PUD, but it violated our private restrictions. The court threw out the case and said no, not only does the township have no obligation to enforce private restrictions, it actually has no authority to do so. It's not even within your zoning authority to do that. And in this particular case, this is your lowest density residential classification. We are complying fully with the zoning on the property. In fact, going beyond that with the cluster option. The cluster option was something, I was part of those meetings, it was actually requested by the township. Why don't you consider doing something like this? We really want to preserve the trees. We really want you to connect some of this beautiful property

  45. With the houses that are in the neighborhood, with the lot sizes in the neighborhood, we're not violating the 110-year-old restrictive covenants. But I do want to say that it's really not for the township to enforce that. I mean, to be fair. I mean, that's something for us to discuss. And there's case law to that effect. I mean, it's a private restrictive covenant. And there's one case on this. You know, I'm a lawyer, so I like to talk about it. cases. There's one case on this involving Shelby Township. Someone sued Shelby, I think it was Shelby Township, because they said you approved a PUD, but it violated our private restrictions. The court threw out the case and said no, not only does the township have no obligation to enforce private restrictions, it actually has no authority to do so. It's not even within your zoning authority to do that. And in this particular case, this is your lowest density residential classification. We are complying fully with the zoning on the property. In fact, going beyond that with the cluster option. The cluster option was something, I was part of those meetings, it was actually requested by the township. Why don't you consider doing something like this? We really want to preserve the trees. We really want you to connect some of this beautiful property to the existing park and make it bigger and more contiguous. And so that's what we did. So I think we're really proud of what we did and hopefully the neighbors will ultimately love it. But I don't know if you have any questions more about any of that. Just one question, since you mentioned that the property obviously is being developed as a site condo and the eight units, and we'll get into the general common area later because I have some questions on that. But had you gone ahead with, I know you had to do a parallel plan to demonstrate the number of lots that could be built, right? Yes. If that parallel plan were to be implemented would it would it be a planted subdivision or would it also have been a site condo we were proposing a site condo okay so again with a lot of people I talked to friends of mine that know nothing about the condos or residential site condos today look like these certain site condos look like single-family developments they're just like these homes are custom homes are not going to look the same people think about a condominium they think about the same home you know unit after unit that is a kind of condominium but literally it's got to be at

  46. We really want to preserve the trees. We really want you to connect some of this beautiful property to the existing park and make it bigger and more contiguous. And so that's what we did. So I think we're really proud of what we did and hopefully the neighbors will ultimately love it. But I don't know if you have any questions more about any of that. Just one question, since you mentioned that the property obviously is being developed as a site condo and the eight units, and we'll get into the general common area later because I have some questions on that. But had you gone ahead with, I know you had to do a parallel plan to demonstrate the number of lots that could be built, right? Yes. If that parallel plan were to be implemented would it would it be a planted subdivision or would it also have been a site condo we were proposing a site condo okay so again with a lot of people I talked to friends of mine that know nothing about the condos or residential site condos today look like these certain site condos look like single-family developments they're just like these homes are custom homes are not going to look the same people think about a condominium they think about the same home you know unit after unit that is a kind of condominium but literally it's got to be at least 20 years everybody does site condos so if you see a brand new subdivision it looks like a subdivision every house is looks different they're all individual lots with builders they are all site condos today I haven't seen a new development that's not a site condo it's just the organization that way you have a homeowners association a condo association you know it's just it's just an easier different and more and more comprehensive regulatory scheme to be able to do it but that's why when you saw the pictures here of the homes these are all that's what we're saying I mean anybody can buy a home and they design their own home they have to submit it to a board to make sure it meets the criteria for materials quality whatever it is for the subdivision these are going to be very expensive homes but they'll all be different it's not like you're they're the same does that explain I think I describe it as nothing but a form of ownership. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, and a way to organize the utilities, too. I had a question that's germane to this point. Okay. I'll allow me to interrupt. You may answer it or Andrea may answer it. So there's two parcels.

  47. same home you know unit after unit that is a kind of condominium but literally it's got to be at least 20 years everybody does site condos so if you see a brand new subdivision it looks like a subdivision every house is looks different they're all individual lots with builders they are all site condos today I haven't seen a new development that's not a site condo it's just the organization that way you have a homeowners association a condo association you know it's just it's just an easier different and more and more comprehensive regulatory scheme to be able to do it but that's why when you saw the pictures here of the homes these are all that's what we're saying I mean anybody can buy a home and they design their own home they have to submit it to a board to make sure it meets the criteria for materials quality whatever it is for the subdivision these are going to be very expensive homes but they'll all be different it's not like you're they're the same does that explain I think I describe it as nothing but a form of ownership. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, and a way to organize the utilities, too. I had a question that's germane to this point. Okay. I'll allow me to interrupt. You may answer it or Andrea may answer it. So there's two parcels. Are you combining the parcels and then performing? What is the question in relationship to the establishment of the site condo? There's two parcels. Are they making? Three. I can answer that. Yeah. Thank you. I can answer that. Three parcels, my mistake. So some years ago, it might not be 30 years ago, a Michigan court held that you did not have to replat, amend a plat, change a plat to put a site condo over it. So no one does anything. All you have to do is record the condo and that now establishes it. So there's no combination and then re-split. Right, right. You just blanket it over the development. So when people redevelop property, like these older areas and they redevelop, like if you're doing a whole subdivision in certain areas, particularly older communities, not here, I mean, you could have, sometimes you have these old plats, 13 different plats, and they're all mixed up. You don't have to do anything with those. You don't have to vacate them. You just record the condo over it. Let me clarify my question. Okay. Because I heard somebody in the other.

  48. Are you combining the parcels and then performing? What is the question in relationship to the establishment of the site condo? There's two parcels. Are they making? Three. I can answer that. Yeah. Thank you. I can answer that. Three parcels, my mistake. So some years ago, it might not be 30 years ago, a Michigan court held that you did not have to replat, amend a plat, change a plat to put a site condo over it. So no one does anything. All you have to do is record the condo and that now establishes it. So there's no combination and then re-split. Right, right. You just blanket it over the development. So when people redevelop property, like these older areas and they redevelop, like if you're doing a whole subdivision in certain areas, particularly older communities, not here, I mean, you could have, sometimes you have these old plats, 13 different plats, and they're all mixed up. You don't have to do anything with those. You don't have to vacate them. You just record the condo over it. Let me clarify my question. Okay. Because I heard somebody in the other. audience say something. Okay. There's three lots designated, but there's two parcels. Yes. Don't ask me. I have not looked into why that is. Well, at some point somebody co-joined the tax entities. Yeah, and there was, as I said, these parcels were abutting the main road that went into the development. That was vacated some time ago by seven property owners. I saw, I think it was seven. I have no idea what caused that, why that happened. But then part of that property went to the park, because it's the Birmingham Park, and part of that property went to these parcels. Got it. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Anything else? Appreciate it. Thank you. Well, if there's any discussion by the board, we could have that and then we could open it to the public. All, do all of the utility improvements occur within the township's property?

  49. audience say something. Okay. There's three lots designated, but there's two parcels. Yes. Don't ask me. I have not looked into why that is. Well, at some point somebody co-joined the tax entities. Yeah, and there was, as I said, these parcels were abutting the main road that went into the development. That was vacated some time ago by seven property owners. I saw, I think it was seven. I have no idea what caused that, why that happened. But then part of that property went to the park, because it's the Birmingham Park, and part of that property went to these parcels. Got it. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Anything else? Appreciate it. Thank you. Well, if there's any discussion by the board, we could have that and then we could open it to the public. All, do all of the utility improvements occur within the township's property? Is the water line? That's the township. And the sanitary. You're connecting the sanitary if I remember. correctly Nikki said that's me connecting to an existing manhole that's on their property that goes to the storm drain okay yeah Nikki could the sanitary is completely on our property Bloomfield Township the water main is going to the west as well that's down at Brookdale and Manor Road and we are we're not doing any work off of our property for the for the stormwater outlet but will ultimately flow to the Birmingham storm sewer so that's why we have to get the permit but we are not we don't need like an easement because we don't have to do work on their property that was the flow will go there was there an easement okay but but but the water is already flowing there now the water flowing there now through this stream it goes stream into the storm sewer so we're still planning for the water to go in this stream which is on our property but then it eventually makes its way to the city storm sewer so that's why we need their approval and in the

  50. All, do all of the utility improvements occur within the township's property? Is the water line? That's the township. And the sanitary. You're connecting the sanitary if I remember. correctly Nikki said that's me connecting to an existing manhole that's on their property that goes to the storm drain okay yeah Nikki could the sanitary is completely on our property Bloomfield Township the water main is going to the west as well that's down at Brookdale and Manor Road and we are we're not doing any work off of our property for the for the stormwater outlet but will ultimately flow to the Birmingham storm sewer so that's why we have to get the permit but we are not we don't need like an easement because we don't have to do work on their property that was the flow will go there was there an easement okay but but but the water is already flowing there now the water flowing there now through this stream it goes stream into the storm sewer so we're still planning for the water to go in this stream which is on our property but then it eventually makes its way to the city storm sewer so that's why we need their approval and in the water that's going to flow there after the development is going to be less than it is today and you say you listen yeah because it's today it's like 66 CFS 6.5 CFS that's going there now undetained and after this I think it's like for something so it's like a forty-some percent reduction in flow to their sewer system okay because of the detention can you go to the graphic that showed the wetlands and the and the development. Can you show the site plan that has the wetlands on it? Yeah. Well there was one Nikki went through. Okay that's good enough right there. So that's showing it, right? That's the parallel plan. But you can see the wetlands there, yeah. Go to the developed plan, the sixth lot. You had made a statement that showed the wetlands that none of the new boundaries of the lots impacted or crossed over into any of the wetland designations. This was not the graphic, I think it was it. It was the one that you did? Yeah, it was probably the other one, which we just pulled out. So there is no wetlands within any of our lots.

  51. its way to the city storm sewer so that's why we need their approval and in the water that's going to flow there after the development is going to be less than it is today and you say you listen yeah because it's today it's like 66 CFS 6.5 CFS that's going there now undetained and after this I think it's like for something so it's like a forty-some percent reduction in flow to their sewer system okay because of the detention can you go to the graphic that showed the wetlands and the and the development. Can you show the site plan that has the wetlands on it? Yeah. Well there was one Nikki went through. Okay that's good enough right there. So that's showing it, right? That's the parallel plan. But you can see the wetlands there, yeah. Go to the developed plan, the sixth lot. You had made a statement that showed the wetlands that none of the new boundaries of the lots impacted or crossed over into any of the wetland designations. This was not the graphic, I think it was it. It was the one that you did? Yeah, it was probably the other one, which we just pulled out. So there is no wetlands within any of our lots. There is two lots, I believe it's, I'm sorry I can't even see the, even with my glasses. I think it's one in three where the natural feature setback goes into the back of our lot, but it's not within the buildable area. So those buildable areas are what's shown in brown here. Yes. So the natural feature setback goes into a little bit of their backyard. It's a very tiny amount, but not within the building envelopes. So we are not planning for the work, for our site work to touch any of the natural feature setback. The, the, and in the future, if a home, when the homes are built, they won't be touching. natural features set back they it will be essentially in their yard a tiny piece of their yard that clarified it thank you okay i i was going to ask this later but since you came up again i might as well ask the question now so you made the statement that obviously you want to save as many trees as possible so does the township so are the neighbors but you said that all trees in the open space that's hatched out on these plans are to be preserved i mean do you sure are you sure you want to say that because that would mean all the grades in that area can't be changed is

  52. designations. This was not the graphic, I think it was it. It was the one that you did? Yeah, it was probably the other one, which we just pulled out. So there is no wetlands within any of our lots. There is two lots, I believe it's, I'm sorry I can't even see the, even with my glasses. I think it's one in three where the natural feature setback goes into the back of our lot, but it's not within the buildable area. So those buildable areas are what's shown in brown here. Yes. So the natural feature setback goes into a little bit of their backyard. It's a very tiny amount, but not within the building envelopes. So we are not planning for the work, for our site work to touch any of the natural feature setback. The, the, and in the future, if a home, when the homes are built, they won't be touching. natural features set back they it will be essentially in their yard a tiny piece of their yard that clarified it thank you okay i i was going to ask this later but since you came up again i might as well ask the question now so you made the statement that obviously you want to save as many trees as possible so does the township so are the neighbors but you said that all trees in the open space that's hatched out on these plans are to be preserved i mean do you sure are you sure you want to say that because that would mean all the grades in that area can't be changed is that is that actually the case we're not planning to change grades in those areas are we matt we're not yeah it's not we're not we're not planning to grade anything over there um but that's that's 50 percent of the property and you're going to build the only thing i will say is that we may want to take down a old dead tree that's in there which but we don't think our ordinance covers if a tree is dead it's not even subject to the tree preservation right so that that's going to happen now there are as you can see over on the specifically on the west side of the site that around lot lot six right now is if you drive out there is like a cleared area it's there's like a tree in the middle of it but that's the one area that's not very wooded right now so we're proposing as you can see on this plan quite a few new trees along the west and south property line there so there will be some work done in that there to plant those trees but that i get that but i i just didn't want you to make a statement that that's the desire but it can't be implemented because the grade might be manipulated so if you're

  53. sure you want to say that because that would mean all the grades in that area can't be changed is that is that actually the case we're not planning to change grades in those areas are we matt we're not yeah it's not we're not we're not planning to grade anything over there um but that's that's 50 percent of the property and you're going to build the only thing i will say is that we may want to take down a old dead tree that's in there which but we don't think our ordinance covers if a tree is dead it's not even subject to the tree preservation right so that that's going to happen now there are as you can see over on the specifically on the west side of the site that around lot lot six right now is if you drive out there is like a cleared area it's there's like a tree in the middle of it but that's the one area that's not very wooded right now so we're proposing as you can see on this plan quite a few new trees along the west and south property line there so there will be some work done in that there to plant those trees but that i get that but i i just didn't want you to make a statement that that's the desire but it can't be implemented because the grade might be manipulated so if you're sure that the grade is not going to change then the statement that the trees are going to remain you know makes sense to me but it doesn't make sense to me if the grade changes and i i like the fact that you're not going to take the trees out where the homes go until there's a home to be built and the reason is is you know maybe some rich guy wants to buy two lots yeah and he wanted those trees or he or she and if they were gone they're gone so well they're custom homes so they may want to leave a tree i mean these are this is the max size of those homes on on the the brown boxes here but if there's a tree in there that they may want to save they don't have to build that full size so yeah we we are planning on those trees cut what as necessary coming down as the home so i think we'd like to open it up to the public now and um i think you just have to state your name and address and speak on the matter and then also there's a three minute limit so i don't know who's going to be in charge so if anybody from the public would like to speak please approach

  54. that that's the desire but it can't be implemented because the grade might be manipulated so if you're sure that the grade is not going to change then the statement that the trees are going to remain you know makes sense to me but it doesn't make sense to me if the grade changes and i i like the fact that you're not going to take the trees out where the homes go until there's a home to be built and the reason is is you know maybe some rich guy wants to buy two lots yeah and he wanted those trees or he or she and if they were gone they're gone so well they're custom homes so they may want to leave a tree i mean these are this is the max size of those homes on on the the brown boxes here but if there's a tree in there that they may want to save they don't have to build that full size so yeah we we are planning on those trees cut what as necessary coming down as the home so i think we'd like to open it up to the public now and um i think you just have to state your name and address and speak on the matter and then also there's a three minute limit so i don't know who's going to be in charge so if anybody from the public would like to speak please approach I'm the president of the Homeowners Association. I'm only going to get three minutes. Yes. Yep. Okay, first of all, I would like to state that my name is John Stratton. I'm the president of the Homeowners Association, which this property is part of. Okay, so it's not a separate piece of property. It's part of our property. There is a deed restriction that's been put on this property, and I know you don't have authorization to comply with it or not, but I'm going to quote from the deed restriction. It says, each of these lots shall be used strictly, for strictly residential purposes, only and no building except single dwelling houses and necessary outbuildings shall be erected or moved on to these lots. And that was signed by a judge in Oakland County. Okay. Existing lots. And all the existing lots, there's three existing lots. That's three houses. Okay. Second of all, I've pulled all our homeowners and the Homeowners Association that we have here, and we've only had one that found that this property was acceptable to building on this site here.

  55. I'm the president of the Homeowners Association. I'm only going to get three minutes. Yes. Yep. Okay, first of all, I would like to state that my name is John Stratton. I'm the president of the Homeowners Association, which this property is part of. Okay, so it's not a separate piece of property. It's part of our property. There is a deed restriction that's been put on this property, and I know you don't have authorization to comply with it or not, but I'm going to quote from the deed restriction. It says, each of these lots shall be used strictly, for strictly residential purposes, only and no building except single dwelling houses and necessary outbuildings shall be erected or moved on to these lots. And that was signed by a judge in Oakland County. Okay. Existing lots. And all the existing lots, there's three existing lots. That's three houses. Okay. Second of all, I've pulled all our homeowners and the Homeowners Association that we have here, and we've only had one that found that this property was acceptable to building on this site here. So we don't have a lot of people in our homeowners association that's really wanting this property, mainly because we want the three houses, which we're more than happy to have, put up. Also, if we looked at the updated plan or guide for here, they're talking 18,000 square foot lots, not 22,000 square foot, which is an R3 requirement based on the zoning board that I saw. And a couple of the lots don't even meet the 130 feet wide frontage part that is required. So, you know, I'm not even sure why some of this is even being brought to you because it doesn't even meet your own restrictions. And for the homeowners. There's also a lot of concern about the water pipe that's going to be brought in down Manor Lane. Now, there was no soil samples taken on Manor Lane. But if you look on Manor Lane, there's a lot of erosion going into the river. And they're planning on putting that water pipe right there. So when they start digging that water pipe, they're already having an erosion problem now. When they start digging that, I'm assuming there's going to be a lot of erosion going into that river.

  56. and we've only had one that found that this property was acceptable to building on this site here. So we don't have a lot of people in our homeowners association that's really wanting this property, mainly because we want the three houses, which we're more than happy to have, put up. Also, if we looked at the updated plan or guide for here, they're talking 18,000 square foot lots, not 22,000 square foot, which is an R3 requirement based on the zoning board that I saw. And a couple of the lots don't even meet the 130 feet wide frontage part that is required. So, you know, I'm not even sure why some of this is even being brought to you because it doesn't even meet your own restrictions. And for the homeowners. There's also a lot of concern about the water pipe that's going to be brought in down Manor Lane. Now, there was no soil samples taken on Manor Lane. But if you look on Manor Lane, there's a lot of erosion going into the river. And they're planning on putting that water pipe right there. So when they start digging that water pipe, they're already having an erosion problem now. When they start digging that, I'm assuming there's going to be a lot of erosion going into that river. And that's going to be something that's going to be a real problem for new homeowners, if you guys would like to do it. But it's going to be a problem for everybody on Manor from the, just from the restriction of the water. If we looked at, I've looked at a number of the documents for the township. And they asked for the homeowners association to have approval on a lot of these things. It doesn't seem to me that there's going to be a lot of these things. willing to do anything that their homeowners really want to do we the comments that were mentioned up there were really only comments based on their proposal not what they wanted I guess my time's up but that's what I have thank you very much good evening my name is Donna Fiji and I am a resident of 1277 Harrell Circle my husband and I have lived there for 25 years I proudly paid my taxes to the city and have invested in this community because it is a very unique character it

  57. When they start digging that, I'm assuming there's going to be a lot of erosion going into that river. And that's going to be something that's going to be a real problem for new homeowners, if you guys would like to do it. But it's going to be a problem for everybody on Manor from the, just from the restriction of the water. If we looked at, I've looked at a number of the documents for the township. And they asked for the homeowners association to have approval on a lot of these things. It doesn't seem to me that there's going to be a lot of these things. willing to do anything that their homeowners really want to do we the comments that were mentioned up there were really only comments based on their proposal not what they wanted I guess my time's up but that's what I have thank you very much good evening my name is Donna Fiji and I am a resident of 1277 Harrell Circle my husband and I have lived there for 25 years I proudly paid my taxes to the city and have invested in this community because it is a very unique character it seems like only yesterday that many of us stood before the board regarding the very same property same property same problems same issues and the board made the right decision by denying the request lot splits because it did not conform to the character of our neighborhood today I respectfully ask that you reach the same conclusion our neighborhood is made up of custom single-family homes on large wooded lots that are somewhere over a hundred years old now and they're beautiful that fits the neighborhood and it's we have a very rare rule up north atmosphere that everybody likes but they want to destroy it when they come in with developments but the neighborhood is what attracted us the proposed six home developments I understand requires lot splits which will open up Pandora's box if you allow this to happen call it a condo call it what you want but it will it will destroy the neighborhood a mini condo does not blend with the existing development there's no meaningful benefit to the neighborhood they're going to tear up

  58. city and have invested in this community because it is a very unique character it seems like only yesterday that many of us stood before the board regarding the very same property same property same problems same issues and the board made the right decision by denying the request lot splits because it did not conform to the character of our neighborhood today I respectfully ask that you reach the same conclusion our neighborhood is made up of custom single-family homes on large wooded lots that are somewhere over a hundred years old now and they're beautiful that fits the neighborhood and it's we have a very rare rule up north atmosphere that everybody likes but they want to destroy it when they come in with developments but the neighborhood is what attracted us the proposed six home developments I understand requires lot splits which will open up Pandora's box if you allow this to happen call it a condo call it what you want but it will it will destroy the neighborhood a mini condo does not blend with the existing development there's no meaningful benefit to the neighborhood they're going to tear up Manor Road do you understand that's our main way in and out it's gonna be horrible mud it's gonna be terrible and that might come to go down into the Rouge River which will impact the wildlife also the erosion my husband I had put thousands of dollars in due to increased development upstream that increased the water flow and eroded our bank as is impacting our property we had to put in $40,000 to help save our riverbank I'm also deeply concerned about not only the river but just the infrastructure that you're proposing during construction it's gonna take three years or more to build these homes and the developers and come in he's setting up the land and he's gone who's gonna control this you we know darn well that the contractors are not going to use big beaver they're going to come through the neighborhood and our old manor road And that little bridge can't handle the concrete trucks, the other trucks that are going to be, and just the sheer amount of traffic. I know my time is running out here, too. But once the character of our neighborhood is lost, it cannot be rebuilt.

  59. there's no meaningful benefit to the neighborhood they're going to tear up Manor Road do you understand that's our main way in and out it's gonna be horrible mud it's gonna be terrible and that might come to go down into the Rouge River which will impact the wildlife also the erosion my husband I had put thousands of dollars in due to increased development upstream that increased the water flow and eroded our bank as is impacting our property we had to put in $40,000 to help save our riverbank I'm also deeply concerned about not only the river but just the infrastructure that you're proposing during construction it's gonna take three years or more to build these homes and the developers and come in he's setting up the land and he's gone who's gonna control this you we know darn well that the contractors are not going to use big beaver they're going to come through the neighborhood and our old manor road And that little bridge can't handle the concrete trucks, the other trucks that are going to be, and just the sheer amount of traffic. I know my time is running out here, too. But once the character of our neighborhood is lost, it cannot be rebuilt. So, again, I respectfully ask the board to preserve our neighborhood and deny this request for the lot. Thank you. Thank you. Hi, my name is Kate Eisenstein. I live at 240 Hero Circle. I've lived there for over 30 years. And I agree with everything my neighbor just said. My principal concern is straightforward. The town should previously consider development on this property and determine that no more than five houses could be developed. So, the whole purpose, and this was brought up by Andrea, that the open space plan cannot exceed what would be allowed under a standard development. The township previously considered this matter and said we consider five to be acceptable. It went up to the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals, and they said that the Bloomfield Township decision was appropriate, that they gave it due consideration, and that the township had the discretion to make that ruling. So, what has changed? Nothing's changed. It's a new developer. It's a new developer. It's a new developer. It's a new developer. It's a new developer. I'm going to do a little bit more.

  60. But once the character of our neighborhood is lost, it cannot be rebuilt. So, again, I respectfully ask the board to preserve our neighborhood and deny this request for the lot. Thank you. Thank you. Hi, my name is Kate Eisenstein. I live at 240 Hero Circle. I've lived there for over 30 years. And I agree with everything my neighbor just said. My principal concern is straightforward. The town should previously consider development on this property and determine that no more than five houses could be developed. So, the whole purpose, and this was brought up by Andrea, that the open space plan cannot exceed what would be allowed under a standard development. The township previously considered this matter and said we consider five to be acceptable. It went up to the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals, and they said that the Bloomfield Township decision was appropriate, that they gave it due consideration, and that the township had the discretion to make that ruling. So, what has changed? Nothing's changed. It's a new developer. It's a new developer. It's a new developer. It's a new developer. It's a new developer. I'm going to do a little bit more. who wants to make money off of this piece of property, tear down all the trees, because I know they're saying they're not gonna tear down all the trees. They're gonna tear down all the trees. One of you asked the question about grading, and they said, we're not gonna tear down all the trees. We're gonna leave the natural features. I don't know if all of you have walked the property. The property isn't flat. They're gonna have to do grading. There is variations in the elevations in this property towards the wetlands. That I believe are getting short shrift here as well. The wetland and the Bloomfield Manor Park, they are beautiful. They're beautiful. And once they come in, all of those trees will be gone. They will have to level things. There will be disruption, and it'll all be gone. It'll all be gone. So I guess my concern here is what has changed? I don't understand how we can proceed with this. When the township previously said five, they're asking for six and saying, but we're doing you a big favor by not asking for nine, but it doesn't look like they even qualify for nine or eight or seven. I don't understand. And I guess that's the question that I ask you to answer these questions before you proceed.

  61. who wants to make money off of this piece of property, tear down all the trees, because I know they're saying they're not gonna tear down all the trees. They're gonna tear down all the trees. One of you asked the question about grading, and they said, we're not gonna tear down all the trees. We're gonna leave the natural features. I don't know if all of you have walked the property. The property isn't flat. They're gonna have to do grading. There is variations in the elevations in this property towards the wetlands. That I believe are getting short shrift here as well. The wetland and the Bloomfield Manor Park, they are beautiful. They're beautiful. And once they come in, all of those trees will be gone. They will have to level things. There will be disruption, and it'll all be gone. It'll all be gone. So I guess my concern here is what has changed? I don't understand how we can proceed with this. When the township previously said five, they're asking for six and saying, but we're doing you a big favor by not asking for nine, but it doesn't look like they even qualify for nine or eight or seven. I don't understand. And I guess that's the question that I ask you to answer these questions before you proceed. Because once you give them approval, it's all done. It's just a, it's just a rote process. They don't have approvals from Birmingham. They don't have all the time. pieces in place we understand that they have been backdoor negotiations last week why is this being rushed it needs to be given due consideration and we need as the neighborhood an explanation for what has changed and why six is even being considered and then there's the deed restriction the deed restriction is not a nothing it isn't there are i live on an acre lot my neighbors have an acre or two acres lots what what what about all those neighbors can they all split their lots or is it just big developers who gets to decide thank you thank you um hello my name is mitch swayze my wife carol and i lived on 225 harrell circle this will be right behind our home it is a unique neighborhood they're calling it a hamlet that's no accident it is a hamlet

  62. And I guess that's the question that I ask you to answer these questions before you proceed. Because once you give them approval, it's all done. It's just a, it's just a rote process. They don't have approvals from Birmingham. They don't have all the time. pieces in place we understand that they have been backdoor negotiations last week why is this being rushed it needs to be given due consideration and we need as the neighborhood an explanation for what has changed and why six is even being considered and then there's the deed restriction the deed restriction is not a nothing it isn't there are i live on an acre lot my neighbors have an acre or two acres lots what what what about all those neighbors can they all split their lots or is it just big developers who gets to decide thank you thank you um hello my name is mitch swayze my wife carol and i lived on 225 harrell circle this will be right behind our home it is a unique neighborhood they're calling it a hamlet that's no accident it is a hamlet or it was a hamlet until this happens the character of this neighborhood is going to be turned upside down they mentioned nikki i think said this is an old plaid it's not an old plaid that's the existing plaid she would like it to be the old plaid but it isn't this is the rules that we operate under that access to the north on big beaver that's in true intriguing, but what are you going to have? You're going to have big trucks, what, taking a left on the Big Beaver? Have you seen, has anyone tried to take a left on the Big Beaver out Brickdale? You almost can, unless you're willing to risk your life. They're going to have big equipment making a left. Think about that. That's a two-lane road. It's a major road for commuting traffic. You're going to jam that up. They can really only take a left because if they take a right, they're going to run right into that low bridge. So tell me a cement truck's going to take a left or take a right. They're not going to do it. So you've got a real problem, a safety issue, traffic issue. Contractors in their pickup trucks are going to come through the neighborhood. They always do. We've seen homes built. It takes years. They always do. And for what it's worth, because we're a Hamlet, we have lots

  63. it is a unique neighborhood they're calling it a hamlet that's no accident it is a hamlet or it was a hamlet until this happens the character of this neighborhood is going to be turned upside down they mentioned nikki i think said this is an old plaid it's not an old plaid that's the existing plaid she would like it to be the old plaid but it isn't this is the rules that we operate under that access to the north on big beaver that's in true intriguing, but what are you going to have? You're going to have big trucks, what, taking a left on the Big Beaver? Have you seen, has anyone tried to take a left on the Big Beaver out Brickdale? You almost can, unless you're willing to risk your life. They're going to have big equipment making a left. Think about that. That's a two-lane road. It's a major road for commuting traffic. You're going to jam that up. They can really only take a left because if they take a right, they're going to run right into that low bridge. So tell me a cement truck's going to take a left or take a right. They're not going to do it. So you've got a real problem, a safety issue, traffic issue. Contractors in their pickup trucks are going to come through the neighborhood. They always do. We've seen homes built. It takes years. They always do. And for what it's worth, because we're a Hamlet, we have lots of walkers, bikes, dog walkers, young families in strollers. We don't have sidewalks. And these contractors are always 20 minutes late. And they always go fast. And they take laps without looking to see who's there. We've seen near accidents over and over and over. And it's always these contractors. They're going to be coming through our neighborhood. And people are going to get hurt. I would point out, too, that these restrictions have been in place for, you know, for 110 years. Howard knew that when he bought. He's just looking to flip these things. He's not building. We know that. He's going to prep them, flip them. them and he's out and we're left with what so i i would look at howard and say you knew this you're trying to force this issue you're trying to bend the rules and you've got all your attorneys great we're just standing here saying what about us and it's going to be bad it's going to be bad for us not just during these years of construction but once they robbed us of our hamlet great they're gone weren't it weren't stuck with it thank you hello my name is marty bernstein i live

  64. takes years. They always do. And for what it's worth, because we're a Hamlet, we have lots of walkers, bikes, dog walkers, young families in strollers. We don't have sidewalks. And these contractors are always 20 minutes late. And they always go fast. And they take laps without looking to see who's there. We've seen near accidents over and over and over. And it's always these contractors. They're going to be coming through our neighborhood. And people are going to get hurt. I would point out, too, that these restrictions have been in place for, you know, for 110 years. Howard knew that when he bought. He's just looking to flip these things. He's not building. We know that. He's going to prep them, flip them. them and he's out and we're left with what so i i would look at howard and say you knew this you're trying to force this issue you're trying to bend the rules and you've got all your attorneys great we're just standing here saying what about us and it's going to be bad it's going to be bad for us not just during these years of construction but once they robbed us of our hamlet great they're gone weren't it weren't stuck with it thank you hello my name is marty bernstein i live at one two seven seven harrow circle donna's my wife um and i wanted to uh just give a little history and 12 years ago or something like that sun communities came in bought the same property and we came here and proposed eight just a lot split in the eight uh homes and we we're doing this dance again um my thoughts are that uh there hasn't been a lot split in the neighborhood for about for around 100 years and that every lot in bloomfield manor and supervisors plat number five i guess we're known as river folk because the river goes right through my property we're at the corner of brookdale and manor on the south side of uh on manor and um every lot about 1.3 1.25 acres and our lot's double acres 2.6 again we have the rouge river goes through the middle but splitting the original three lots and the six lots will will set a precedent in the neighborhood where the township will not be able to stop anyone that wants to split lots i got as mentioned every lot is pretty large and i have 2.6

  65. they're gone weren't it weren't stuck with it thank you hello my name is marty bernstein i live at one two seven seven harrow circle donna's my wife um and i wanted to uh just give a little history and 12 years ago or something like that sun communities came in bought the same property and we came here and proposed eight just a lot split in the eight uh homes and we we're doing this dance again um my thoughts are that uh there hasn't been a lot split in the neighborhood for about for around 100 years and that every lot in bloomfield manor and supervisors plat number five i guess we're known as river folk because the river goes right through my property we're at the corner of brookdale and manor on the south side of uh on manor and um every lot about 1.3 1.25 acres and our lot's double acres 2.6 again we have the rouge river goes through the middle but splitting the original three lots and the six lots will will set a precedent in the neighborhood where the township will not be able to stop anyone that wants to split lots i got as mentioned every lot is pretty large and i have 2.6 acres why wouldn't i split up my property um so if this is approved this we will not be able to recognize i mean other people will do it once it starts it's you've opened up um you open it up precedence anyone can do it and you won't you'll not be able to stop it and therefore 10 15 years from now you will not be able to recognize this neighborhood it'll be completely completely different additionally um being on the south side of manor at brookdale the hydrant where you're going to be tapped into is in my is on my property well there's an easement so it's kind of right there and the storm drain is just outside of that area and the route and you know the our properties uh the elevation is kind of at the bottom of uh uh from the top of manor or a manor where morwick is comes straight down hill and goes through that storm and then goes through the rouge river through the river um through the river and it floods every two three times a year my entire backyard is flooded and i have i don't understand how it could possibly is so so

  66. to stop anyone that wants to split lots i got as mentioned every lot is pretty large and i have 2.6 acres why wouldn't i split up my property um so if this is approved this we will not be able to recognize i mean other people will do it once it starts it's you've opened up um you open it up precedence anyone can do it and you won't you'll not be able to stop it and therefore 10 15 years from now you will not be able to recognize this neighborhood it'll be completely completely different additionally um being on the south side of manor at brookdale the hydrant where you're going to be tapped into is in my is on my property well there's an easement so it's kind of right there and the storm drain is just outside of that area and the route and you know the our properties uh the elevation is kind of at the bottom of uh uh from the top of manor or a manor where morwick is comes straight down hill and goes through that storm and then goes through the rouge river through the river um through the river and it floods every two three times a year my entire backyard is flooded and i have i don't understand how it could possibly is so so be less when they put their development in there so i am very concerned about that and then ripping up manor from brookdale or further all the way up to warwick will be a nightmare for us because that's again the only uh northern ingress and egress that we have in and out of the neighborhood to go south on woodward to come up through there you can't turn right on into that neighborhood between six uh four and six i don't have any idea how i get home other than going a mile out of my way so i just wanted to mention that thank you for your time thank you hi my name is kate strumbus and my husband and i live at 55 70 brookdale so we're just up the street from the corner that this gentleman was talking about and i will tell you that the home next to us which is on the corner has a retention pool and that area regularly floods um i know that some work was done at the house that's across the street uh on manor road but um it's it's not a pretty picture when there are heavy rains and so i'm a little concerned about uh when i heard that that water

  67. be less when they put their development in there so i am very concerned about that and then ripping up manor from brookdale or further all the way up to warwick will be a nightmare for us because that's again the only uh northern ingress and egress that we have in and out of the neighborhood to go south on woodward to come up through there you can't turn right on into that neighborhood between six uh four and six i don't have any idea how i get home other than going a mile out of my way so i just wanted to mention that thank you for your time thank you hi my name is kate strumbus and my husband and i live at 55 70 brookdale so we're just up the street from the corner that this gentleman was talking about and i will tell you that the home next to us which is on the corner has a retention pool and that area regularly floods um i know that some work was done at the house that's across the street uh on manor road but um it's it's not a pretty picture when there are heavy rains and so i'm a little concerned about uh when i heard that that water drain would come down even if it ties in i've lived there for since 2011 and it just it's always flooding even when they do work so i'm a little concerned concerned about that, and I also heard that they were talking about possibly paving roads. We are on Big Beaver and there's Woodward, and the only thing that keeps that from becoming a thoroughfare is the fact that it's a dirt road. A lot of people go there anyway, they throw their trash out, you know, whatever they do, but that is the only thing that keeps us from becoming a thoroughfare that would be really a nightmare for any residents living in that neighborhood. And finally, I just want to point out that there's property across the street from us that a developer bought several years back and had a Saturday evening special of a tree crew coming in and taking down a lot of trees. That property is now a single family property and they've been trying to market it for probably the last year because it is wetland. And I just, I know that development happens, but the fact that we have deer and we have

  68. when there are heavy rains and so i'm a little concerned about uh when i heard that that water drain would come down even if it ties in i've lived there for since 2011 and it just it's always flooding even when they do work so i'm a little concerned concerned about that, and I also heard that they were talking about possibly paving roads. We are on Big Beaver and there's Woodward, and the only thing that keeps that from becoming a thoroughfare is the fact that it's a dirt road. A lot of people go there anyway, they throw their trash out, you know, whatever they do, but that is the only thing that keeps us from becoming a thoroughfare that would be really a nightmare for any residents living in that neighborhood. And finally, I just want to point out that there's property across the street from us that a developer bought several years back and had a Saturday evening special of a tree crew coming in and taking down a lot of trees. That property is now a single family property and they've been trying to market it for probably the last year because it is wetland. And I just, I know that development happens, but the fact that we have deer and we have so many animals coming through our area and they have unrestricted access, there's so little of it left that I would just hate to see that all become, all go away from them. So, thank you. Thank you. Good evening, my name is David Eisenstein, 240 Harrow Circle. I've submitted my thoughts and comments by email and you are probably receiving a lot of- Thank you. Thank you. self-reinforcing reasons why people have some issues with the project what i'd like to observe is that our community is one in which generations have come and gone we moved there in 1992 you heard from my wife previously we raised our children there our neighbors came in raised children there a generation also left gone their properties were bought by some developers and now they want to take a chunk of our community and make it a separate community one that's not consistent with what generations of families like ours have found in bloomfield manor and as i said in my email

  69. And I just, I know that development happens, but the fact that we have deer and we have so many animals coming through our area and they have unrestricted access, there's so little of it left that I would just hate to see that all become, all go away from them. So, thank you. Thank you. Good evening, my name is David Eisenstein, 240 Harrow Circle. I've submitted my thoughts and comments by email and you are probably receiving a lot of- Thank you. Thank you. self-reinforcing reasons why people have some issues with the project what i'd like to observe is that our community is one in which generations have come and gone we moved there in 1992 you heard from my wife previously we raised our children there our neighbors came in raised children there a generation also left gone their properties were bought by some developers and now they want to take a chunk of our community and make it a separate community one that's not consistent with what generations of families like ours have found in bloomfield manor and as i said in my email when you look at how this is being posited and their responsibility assuming they keep all their responsibilities that they claim they will is gone once they leave when individuals come to clear their lots to make a home i don't see any way we can control what happens regardless when we had the meeting with the developers it was very clear that their point of view was that we really didn't matter right the deed restrictions don't matter our hoa doesn't matter they've come with as the new set of developers after the first set were turned down or ran into some headwinds they took it over and they think they have now a statute that allows them to do essentially whatever they want to do, but they're graciously limiting themselves with this open preservation provision. That was the tone of the meeting. And so I came away from that not feeling that they really felt that we mattered at all, that our community mattered at all. And I think that generates a lot of the feeling amongst our community that the only principled stance we can take in looking at a development like this is to say that we oppose it in principle because it's not consistent with our community.

  70. with what generations of families like ours have found in bloomfield manor and as i said in my email when you look at how this is being posited and their responsibility assuming they keep all their responsibilities that they claim they will is gone once they leave when individuals come to clear their lots to make a home i don't see any way we can control what happens regardless when we had the meeting with the developers it was very clear that their point of view was that we really didn't matter right the deed restrictions don't matter our hoa doesn't matter they've come with as the new set of developers after the first set were turned down or ran into some headwinds they took it over and they think they have now a statute that allows them to do essentially whatever they want to do, but they're graciously limiting themselves with this open preservation provision. That was the tone of the meeting. And so I came away from that not feeling that they really felt that we mattered at all, that our community mattered at all. And I think that generates a lot of the feeling amongst our community that the only principled stance we can take in looking at a development like this is to say that we oppose it in principle because it's not consistent with our community. I looked at the developers in that meeting and said, you have three big beautiful lots. Why not develop three big beautiful homes of the site you're showing, which would encroach quite a bit on the smaller lot that they have in this development. But I don't think that really matters to them. So with respect, I request that the board look at this proposal, ask some of the hard questions that my wife, Kate, asked you to ask, and in principle, see our side of this and why we oppose going forward with this kind of development in our community, which basically takes a hunk of our community away from us and the generations before us that have enjoyed this area. Thank you for your time and your attention. Hello, I'm Christina Wagner at 58 Manor Road. I purchased in the neighborhood roughly 14 years ago and live in one of the oldest homes in the neighborhood. And the whole reason we bought the neighborhood is because of the character. The character is the literal canteen. of the surrounding area, and I don't want to repeat all the sentiments that were spoken before me, but I 100% agree with every single statement that was made, as well as all the neighbors that we've discussed this issue with.

  71. because it's not consistent with our community. I looked at the developers in that meeting and said, you have three big beautiful lots. Why not develop three big beautiful homes of the site you're showing, which would encroach quite a bit on the smaller lot that they have in this development. But I don't think that really matters to them. So with respect, I request that the board look at this proposal, ask some of the hard questions that my wife, Kate, asked you to ask, and in principle, see our side of this and why we oppose going forward with this kind of development in our community, which basically takes a hunk of our community away from us and the generations before us that have enjoyed this area. Thank you for your time and your attention. Hello, I'm Christina Wagner at 58 Manor Road. I purchased in the neighborhood roughly 14 years ago and live in one of the oldest homes in the neighborhood. And the whole reason we bought the neighborhood is because of the character. The character is the literal canteen. of the surrounding area, and I don't want to repeat all the sentiments that were spoken before me, but I 100% agree with every single statement that was made, as well as all the neighbors that we've discussed this issue with. So the one thing that I think hasn't been impressed upon prior to me that I want to make sure is really looked at and discussed is how this is being proposed as open space preservation. It already is preserved in the three lots that we have, with three homes allowed to be permitted on those three single-family lots. So being able to subdivide these lots and preserve some of the nature is in no way open space preservation. So I just want to make sure that that sentiment is clear because it is a beautiful property. Also, as was expressed prior to me, that the park is used by all the neighbors, having the dirt road. We do not want it paved for many reasons, not to mention the character and utilities, flooding issues. There's a lot of them. So just want to make sure that, you know, as you're considering this, that the open space preservation really, in my opinion, is a loophole for a developer to come in to try to make money. It is not preserving anything. It is not maintaining the integrity of our neighborhood.

  72. So the one thing that I think hasn't been impressed upon prior to me that I want to make sure is really looked at and discussed is how this is being proposed as open space preservation. It already is preserved in the three lots that we have, with three homes allowed to be permitted on those three single-family lots. So being able to subdivide these lots and preserve some of the nature is in no way open space preservation. So I just want to make sure that that sentiment is clear because it is a beautiful property. Also, as was expressed prior to me, that the park is used by all the neighbors, having the dirt road. We do not want it paved for many reasons, not to mention the character and utilities, flooding issues. There's a lot of them. So just want to make sure that, you know, as you're considering this, that the open space preservation really, in my opinion, is a loophole for a developer to come in to try to make money. It is not preserving anything. It is not maintaining the integrity of our neighborhood. and the reason why all of our neighbors bought into this neighborhood, it is adding a subdivision period. And that's not something that we bought into in the neighborhood and it's not something that Bloomfield Township should permit. My name is Kristen Croft. I live at 111 Manor Road. This is like such an upsetting topic for me. Anyone I've spoken to is not okay with this large development that's happening on this piece of land. I don't understand why they need to come in from Manor. Like if they really wanted this little development, why don't you make your opening from Big Beaver? Why do you have to have it on Manor Road? It doesn't make any sense that there has to be access to Manor Road if this actual proposal goes through. Number two is that we spoke to a road commissioner who was so lackluster about paving our dirt road. That is why most of us again bought in this neighborhood is that was so unique. You felt you're up north when you're in the middle of Birmingham or Bloomfield. So that's another thing that made me sick to my stomach. The other thing is that I live at the bottom of Manor and Brookdale. Our yard floods in the hundred year rains

  73. and the reason why all of our neighbors bought into this neighborhood, it is adding a subdivision period. And that's not something that we bought into in the neighborhood and it's not something that Bloomfield Township should permit. My name is Kristen Croft. I live at 111 Manor Road. This is like such an upsetting topic for me. Anyone I've spoken to is not okay with this large development that's happening on this piece of land. I don't understand why they need to come in from Manor. Like if they really wanted this little development, why don't you make your opening from Big Beaver? Why do you have to have it on Manor Road? It doesn't make any sense that there has to be access to Manor Road if this actual proposal goes through. Number two is that we spoke to a road commissioner who was so lackluster about paving our dirt road. That is why most of us again bought in this neighborhood is that was so unique. You felt you're up north when you're in the middle of Birmingham or Bloomfield. So that's another thing that made me sick to my stomach. The other thing is that I live at the bottom of Manor and Brookdale. Our yard floods in the hundred year rains that we're supposed to have happen multiple times a year. So my basement floods, even though we've had water, so $25,000 waterproofing our basement. We've had sewage issues. I don't know if the infrastructure, I don't really. understand which direction is this or that way but I don't understand how there wouldn't be more water and waste into our system that would be at the bottom of our street which is my yard and maybe up in my basement so I would hope that we would do some really strong studies on the infrastructure where that sewage really is going again how could there be less water going to this why would Birmingham even want to take on their waste let's be honest and I am part of the Birmingham Bloomfield Moms group I am the admin with 6,000 women in this community I'm part of the Facebook Poppleton Park community there are so many people who are speaking up against that now do I know if these anyone went to their keyboard and and and emailed you I have no idea but we've been petitioning against it we're not happy with this and I would hope that you guys were taking consideration of what the neighborhood wants and what our community as a whole wants not what a developer wants to come in and make money on our on our land all right thank you

  74. Our yard floods in the hundred year rains that we're supposed to have happen multiple times a year. So my basement floods, even though we've had water, so $25,000 waterproofing our basement. We've had sewage issues. I don't know if the infrastructure, I don't really. understand which direction is this or that way but I don't understand how there wouldn't be more water and waste into our system that would be at the bottom of our street which is my yard and maybe up in my basement so I would hope that we would do some really strong studies on the infrastructure where that sewage really is going again how could there be less water going to this why would Birmingham even want to take on their waste let's be honest and I am part of the Birmingham Bloomfield Moms group I am the admin with 6,000 women in this community I'm part of the Facebook Poppleton Park community there are so many people who are speaking up against that now do I know if these anyone went to their keyboard and and and emailed you I have no idea but we've been petitioning against it we're not happy with this and I would hope that you guys were taking consideration of what the neighborhood wants and what our community as a whole wants not what a developer wants to come in and make money on our on our land all right thank you my name is Leslie Whitworth I actually am a Birmingham resident I live on at 663 Shepherd Bush Street so I am one of the two houses that will be directly I guess depending on where you're looking from behind the development I'm not against development I love trees but if I decide to build in Bloomfield I'll have to cut down trees I'm more concerned about safety and infrastructure both the short term concerns and long-term concerns that I have when it comes to safety our understanding and I'm not sure if I'm quoting the developer correctly was that the township decided that the entrance to the neighborhood could not be bit off of Big Beaver that it wasn't his decision that it was your guys's decision and my question is how is it not safe if that was the case how is it not safe for sedans and SUVs from the owners of the six homes to turn off of Big Beaver but it's okay for large trucks hauling dirt rocks hauling cranes bulldozers to make that turn so I'm assuming that that wasn't the case and that it's just less desirable to a potential buyer to have their entrance

  75. money on our on our land all right thank you my name is Leslie Whitworth I actually am a Birmingham resident I live on at 663 Shepherd Bush Street so I am one of the two houses that will be directly I guess depending on where you're looking from behind the development I'm not against development I love trees but if I decide to build in Bloomfield I'll have to cut down trees I'm more concerned about safety and infrastructure both the short term concerns and long-term concerns that I have when it comes to safety our understanding and I'm not sure if I'm quoting the developer correctly was that the township decided that the entrance to the neighborhood could not be bit off of Big Beaver that it wasn't his decision that it was your guys's decision and my question is how is it not safe if that was the case how is it not safe for sedans and SUVs from the owners of the six homes to turn off of Big Beaver but it's okay for large trucks hauling dirt rocks hauling cranes bulldozers to make that turn so I'm assuming that that wasn't the case and that it's just less desirable to a potential buyer to have their entrance to their neighborhood off of Big Beaver the entrance instead is going to be at a very dangerous intersection I submitted a photo of a crash my neighbor Haley is here the the intersection of Warwick and Manor somebody drove into her neighborhood and I'm sorry into her backyard and there's a trailhead right there I propose if this development goes forward that one house is removed from this plan and that the entrance to the neighborhood either goes off of Big Beaver or is moved over to the I think that would be the west so it's not right at that very dangerous intersection that I really hope you guys drive down my other concern is infrastructure flood as many people do. And when you have less permeable land, you're going to have more water streaming into Birmingham. I don't know of any stream in that area of the neighborhood that I can visibly see that goes into our drains. I know there's streams elsewhere, but I would love if they could just come up and show us maybe later where that is. The other thing is, is the trailhead I was speaking of, that's actually Birmingham property. It's a small sliver right behind 663 Shepherd Bush, and I'm not sure if they're showing it as part of Birmingham, so I wanted

  76. that it's just less desirable to a potential buyer to have their entrance to their neighborhood off of Big Beaver the entrance instead is going to be at a very dangerous intersection I submitted a photo of a crash my neighbor Haley is here the the intersection of Warwick and Manor somebody drove into her neighborhood and I'm sorry into her backyard and there's a trailhead right there I propose if this development goes forward that one house is removed from this plan and that the entrance to the neighborhood either goes off of Big Beaver or is moved over to the I think that would be the west so it's not right at that very dangerous intersection that I really hope you guys drive down my other concern is infrastructure flood as many people do. And when you have less permeable land, you're going to have more water streaming into Birmingham. I don't know of any stream in that area of the neighborhood that I can visibly see that goes into our drains. I know there's streams elsewhere, but I would love if they could just come up and show us maybe later where that is. The other thing is, is the trailhead I was speaking of, that's actually Birmingham property. It's a small sliver right behind 663 Shepherd Bush, and I'm not sure if they're showing it as part of Birmingham, so I wanted to mention that. I also submitted photos of our road, which is just, it is going to be a disaster, but I know you guys deal with this with a lot of developments, construction workers going up and down. But again, I'm not against development. If somebody buys property, pays money for it, they should be able to develop it. The reason I don't feel bad in this situation is that he bought it knowing very well that we were one step away from the U.S. Supreme Court. The federal district court ruled in the township's favor, saying the eight houses the previous owner wanted to build, that the township had discretion to say no. My time is up, but I just wanted to end with that and to say that I know he's using a condominium loophole to get around that. But he bought and paid money, should be able to develop the land, but he bought it knowing exactly what happened and is trying to use a loophole. So please consider the safety and infrastructure. the safety and infrastructure for him, that's really nice. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you, Hi, my name is Steve Rumpel. I live on Tottenham Road, also in Birmingham. I came to talk more about the park. I think the lawyer pointed out really well that land use changes over time, and it's not Birmingham's park anymore. It's Birmingham and Bloomfield's park. It

  77. Shepherd Bush, and I'm not sure if they're showing it as part of Birmingham, so I wanted to mention that. I also submitted photos of our road, which is just, it is going to be a disaster, but I know you guys deal with this with a lot of developments, construction workers going up and down. But again, I'm not against development. If somebody buys property, pays money for it, they should be able to develop it. The reason I don't feel bad in this situation is that he bought it knowing very well that we were one step away from the U.S. Supreme Court. The federal district court ruled in the township's favor, saying the eight houses the previous owner wanted to build, that the township had discretion to say no. My time is up, but I just wanted to end with that and to say that I know he's using a condominium loophole to get around that. But he bought and paid money, should be able to develop the land, but he bought it knowing exactly what happened and is trying to use a loophole. So please consider the safety and infrastructure. the safety and infrastructure for him, that's really nice. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you, Hi, my name is Steve Rumpel. I live on Tottenham Road, also in Birmingham. I came to talk more about the park. I think the lawyer pointed out really well that land use changes over time, and it's not Birmingham's park anymore. It's Birmingham and Bloomfield's park. It has expanded all the way into Bloomfield, and they're planning to remove a large portion of the tree portion of the park. It's a very magical path to be on. It's very difficult to find anywhere in Birmingham or Bloomfield where you can go on a trail and feel like you're in the woods, like you walked that path today. Even though Big Beaver's right there, even though Adams Road is close and the railroad is close, you don't see any other houses. All you see are trees. And now they're going to change it, and you're going to walk along and see the back of people's houses. What's going to keep them from building tennis courts or putting in pools or any other thing? And now when you walk that path, you're going to go, oh, that's Bloomfield. That's the township that tears down parks so they can build developments. You know, we're in Birmingham over here. We've got all the trees, and there's Bloomfield with their developments that they love to have. So I just wanted to speak out on that and make sure that there is preservation of the park in mind. I think they can do some form of development, maybe have the three properties that have been talked about, but they can prevent encroaching into the existing park that's there today. So, thank you. APPLAUSE Hi, my name is...

  78. time, and it's not Birmingham's park anymore. It's Birmingham and Bloomfield's park. It has expanded all the way into Bloomfield, and they're planning to remove a large portion of the tree portion of the park. It's a very magical path to be on. It's very difficult to find anywhere in Birmingham or Bloomfield where you can go on a trail and feel like you're in the woods, like you walked that path today. Even though Big Beaver's right there, even though Adams Road is close and the railroad is close, you don't see any other houses. All you see are trees. And now they're going to change it, and you're going to walk along and see the back of people's houses. What's going to keep them from building tennis courts or putting in pools or any other thing? And now when you walk that path, you're going to go, oh, that's Bloomfield. That's the township that tears down parks so they can build developments. You know, we're in Birmingham over here. We've got all the trees, and there's Bloomfield with their developments that they love to have. So I just wanted to speak out on that and make sure that there is preservation of the park in mind. I think they can do some form of development, maybe have the three properties that have been talked about, but they can prevent encroaching into the existing park that's there today. So, thank you. APPLAUSE Hi, my name is... Adam Croft. I live at 111 Manor Road. It's at the corner of Brookdale and Manor at the bottom. My wife spoke just a few minutes ago. We're the ones that have probably the worst water issues out of anybody. We've had multiple sewage backups, natural rainwater backups, our yard floods several times a year. It's a huge issue. So, you know, obviously I, you know, I agree with everything that was said. But regardless of what goes on, I would like to have like some open communication and understand like the water issue, right? I would love to understand like that water main and like what's really going to be the impact and what's going to happen. I would love to understand is the road being paved or not? Because we were told by Bloomfield Township people that the road was going to be paved from where the development starts all the way down to the bridge. And that if we wanted to, we had an opportunity to pave the rest of the road if we wanted to, which we all said we didn't want to. And then the last thing I'm going to say is when Howard was showing the pictures of the homes, he said, you know, we're going to keep them consistent with the neighborhood. And then followed up by saying, oh, and we're going to take down the monument

  79. Adam Croft. I live at 111 Manor Road. It's at the corner of Brookdale and Manor at the bottom. My wife spoke just a few minutes ago. We're the ones that have probably the worst water issues out of anybody. We've had multiple sewage backups, natural rainwater backups, our yard floods several times a year. It's a huge issue. So, you know, obviously I, you know, I agree with everything that was said. But regardless of what goes on, I would like to have like some open communication and understand like the water issue, right? I would love to understand like that water main and like what's really going to be the impact and what's going to happen. I would love to understand is the road being paved or not? Because we were told by Bloomfield Township people that the road was going to be paved from where the development starts all the way down to the bridge. And that if we wanted to, we had an opportunity to pave the rest of the road if we wanted to, which we all said we didn't want to. And then the last thing I'm going to say is when Howard was showing the pictures of the homes, he said, you know, we're going to keep them consistent with the neighborhood. And then followed up by saying, oh, and we're going to take down the monument signage that we wanted to put up. Like, that alone shows how out of touch and inconsistent they are with the neighborhood. Monument signage for like their own little subdivision on Manor Road like the reason why people buy Manor Road is for all the reasons that people said so I would just ask that you keep it to three homes let people build three magical beautiful huge homes and don't change anything you know for condo development thank you good evening my name is Nicholas John Grande I reside at 1360 Oxford I live right across the street from that house or that well it used to be Carlton Sawyer she was my neighbor I've lived there for 25 years great place to live real personable you know average lot size 1.4 acre you know really gives you a feeling of open spaces you walk around it's only dirt you know no sidewalks no streetlights real comfortable well we have these gentlemen here that want to change that there's a swath of three

  80. with the neighborhood. And then followed up by saying, oh, and we're going to take down the monument signage that we wanted to put up. Like, that alone shows how out of touch and inconsistent they are with the neighborhood. Monument signage for like their own little subdivision on Manor Road like the reason why people buy Manor Road is for all the reasons that people said so I would just ask that you keep it to three homes let people build three magical beautiful huge homes and don't change anything you know for condo development thank you good evening my name is Nicholas John Grande I reside at 1360 Oxford I live right across the street from that house or that well it used to be Carlton Sawyer she was my neighbor I've lived there for 25 years great place to live real personable you know average lot size 1.4 acre you know really gives you a feeling of open spaces you walk around it's only dirt you know no sidewalks no streetlights real comfortable well we have these gentlemen here that want to change that there's a swath of three quarter mile by a half mile of people residents here some not that are gonna be affected by this well some will be affected and they don't even know they will be because we'll set a pattern here for this quote-unquote condo approach which this is not harmonious with with where we live I mean And would you really want to do that to all the residents to change and disrupt what they've worked for? A lot of these people, they go out on a limb with their finances to do what they've done. I mean, you've got to really commend them. Someone to put that much effort and work into their home. And they're extremely proud of it. The other thing is, you know, they want to put six houses there. Okay, they have a hardship. I understand they don't want to go out to Big Beaver. Okay, leave three lots there, send the rest of the people our way. That's three lots times probably four cars. Well, they want six lots, right?

  81. have these gentlemen here that want to change that there's a swath of three quarter mile by a half mile of people residents here some not that are gonna be affected by this well some will be affected and they don't even know they will be because we'll set a pattern here for this quote-unquote condo approach which this is not harmonious with with where we live I mean And would you really want to do that to all the residents to change and disrupt what they've worked for? A lot of these people, they go out on a limb with their finances to do what they've done. I mean, you've got to really commend them. Someone to put that much effort and work into their home. And they're extremely proud of it. The other thing is, you know, they want to put six houses there. Okay, they have a hardship. I understand they don't want to go out to Big Beaver. Okay, leave three lots there, send the rest of the people our way. That's three lots times probably four cars. Well, they want six lots, right? And four cars per lot, per house, maybe five. I don't know, short math, 25, 35 cars coming in and out of that one place every day. Okay, and that's the end of what happens. Before that, we're going to have to live through five to ten years of development because they show you pretty pictures of houses, but by no means is that realistic at all. It's just a guess. The way this is situated, I could see this being something that happens in series. One house, then another, then another. It's a lot of suffering. suffering, and we know this because our subdivision is heavily developed by the people that live there, right? And this, this is not that. This is not these people's wishes, and you should consider them and support them. Thank you so much for your time. Hello, I'm also, I'm Jocelyn Gengrande.

  82. Well, they want six lots, right? And four cars per lot, per house, maybe five. I don't know, short math, 25, 35 cars coming in and out of that one place every day. Okay, and that's the end of what happens. Before that, we're going to have to live through five to ten years of development because they show you pretty pictures of houses, but by no means is that realistic at all. It's just a guess. The way this is situated, I could see this being something that happens in series. One house, then another, then another. It's a lot of suffering. suffering, and we know this because our subdivision is heavily developed by the people that live there, right? And this, this is not that. This is not these people's wishes, and you should consider them and support them. Thank you so much for your time. Hello, I'm also, I'm Jocelyn Gengrande. I am his better half at 1360 Oxford Road. I'm not going to be redundant and say anything because I agree 100% with my husband and also my other neighbors here and what they expressed. The only other thing I wanted to add, again, just to emphasize the character of where we live. I'm not sure if any of you have driven up Manor Road and, I mean, it is a park setting. We have people that come from other neighborhoods and communities to come through there. And this just feels like a major disruption just to come down that dirt road, which is a very narrow dirt road with erosion on each side that always has to be repaired. And now we've had tons of construction trucks coming up and down there often with the development that has happened and development happens. But when we're talking about this level of density, what we are getting ready to endure, which people may say is short term, I don't think it is. Talking about driving that traffic up Manor Road, which now we have so much traffic now with people getting home deliveries. We've got Amazon. on trucks. We have construction trucks. Now we're going to have residential cars, more cars coming down there, and there is a very dangerous intersection. I'm on that corner where the Birmingham neighbor that spoke about that intersection at Manor Road in Warwick, that is very dangerous, not only for cars getting ready to hit each other because we live on that corner,

  83. Hello, I'm also, I'm Jocelyn Gengrande. I am his better half at 1360 Oxford Road. I'm not going to be redundant and say anything because I agree 100% with my husband and also my other neighbors here and what they expressed. The only other thing I wanted to add, again, just to emphasize the character of where we live. I'm not sure if any of you have driven up Manor Road and, I mean, it is a park setting. We have people that come from other neighborhoods and communities to come through there. And this just feels like a major disruption just to come down that dirt road, which is a very narrow dirt road with erosion on each side that always has to be repaired. And now we've had tons of construction trucks coming up and down there often with the development that has happened and development happens. But when we're talking about this level of density, what we are getting ready to endure, which people may say is short term, I don't think it is. Talking about driving that traffic up Manor Road, which now we have so much traffic now with people getting home deliveries. We've got Amazon. on trucks. We have construction trucks. Now we're going to have residential cars, more cars coming down there, and there is a very dangerous intersection. I'm on that corner where the Birmingham neighbor that spoke about that intersection at Manor Road in Warwick, that is very dangerous, not only for cars getting ready to hit each other because we live on that corner, but for people who are on bikes. We have children that are on bikes that go around that corner. We have, you know, people who walk, and we have residents of all different ages that walk up and down our neighborhood, which is beautiful because it is walkable. The other thing too is just the whole thought about water and drainage and flooding. Everyone has mentioned that, and I definitely want to make sure we emphasize that. I have no idea how this is going to be less impactful from water runoff. I can guarantee you my property floods, just about everyone over here's flood, and the flooding is increasing over the years. It's not decreasing. We have torrential rains. Now we have all these imprimal surfaces, and my understanding is that they're planning on at least paving their private road, and again, now we have another hard service, and now we have all these other homes, and the last thing I will say is just, again, this is not harmonious to our neighborhood. It is not part of the character, and they're not even trying to be part of the community. I mean, the meeting told us very up that we see ourselves as separate. We're not, we don't have to abide by your deed restrictions. We don't

  84. very dangerous, not only for cars getting ready to hit each other because we live on that corner, but for people who are on bikes. We have children that are on bikes that go around that corner. We have, you know, people who walk, and we have residents of all different ages that walk up and down our neighborhood, which is beautiful because it is walkable. The other thing too is just the whole thought about water and drainage and flooding. Everyone has mentioned that, and I definitely want to make sure we emphasize that. I have no idea how this is going to be less impactful from water runoff. I can guarantee you my property floods, just about everyone over here's flood, and the flooding is increasing over the years. It's not decreasing. We have torrential rains. Now we have all these imprimal surfaces, and my understanding is that they're planning on at least paving their private road, and again, now we have another hard service, and now we have all these other homes, and the last thing I will say is just, again, this is not harmonious to our neighborhood. It is not part of the character, and they're not even trying to be part of the community. I mean, the meeting told us very up that we see ourselves as separate. We're not, we don't have to abide by your deed restrictions. We don't have to abide by any of the platts or any of those kind of things. And in fact, we're going to have our own HOA. We're going to have our own private road. We're going to have our own private monument signed to show that we are distinct. How is that being part of the neighborhood in the community? I don't really understand. So therefore, there is no consideration for the beauty that we have there. I mean, we are known as one of the most beautiful areas. And please, if you haven't walked down it, go walk down Manor Road, and really think about what kind of impact this will have. Thank you. My name is Jim Clark at 205 Harrell Circle. I've sort of prepared. I sent this to the, my, yeah, okay. Do you mind if I read it? Okay. My wife, our two sons, and I moved to Bloomfield, Manor in 1985. I've lived here as long as, or perhaps longer, than anyone else in the neighborhood. Our connection to this area began even earlier, just before our marriage in the fall of 1974. Our wedding photographer brought us up to, brought us to the bridge on Manor Road for photographs.

  85. have to abide by any of the platts or any of those kind of things. And in fact, we're going to have our own HOA. We're going to have our own private road. We're going to have our own private monument signed to show that we are distinct. How is that being part of the neighborhood in the community? I don't really understand. So therefore, there is no consideration for the beauty that we have there. I mean, we are known as one of the most beautiful areas. And please, if you haven't walked down it, go walk down Manor Road, and really think about what kind of impact this will have. Thank you. My name is Jim Clark at 205 Harrell Circle. I've sort of prepared. I sent this to the, my, yeah, okay. Do you mind if I read it? Okay. My wife, our two sons, and I moved to Bloomfield, Manor in 1985. I've lived here as long as, or perhaps longer, than anyone else in the neighborhood. Our connection to this area began even earlier, just before our marriage in the fall of 1974. Our wedding photographer brought us up to, brought us to the bridge on Manor Road for photographs. We both fell in love with the area that day, although at the time we could not afford to live here, there. Nearly 10 years later, with two active boys and a need for a larger home, we... Remembered those photographs and returned to Bloomfield Hills, Bloomfield Manor. We discovered the house directly behind the bridge was for sale and bought it. It has been our home ever since. During my career, I traveled extensively throughout the world for more than 50 years. I've seen many beautiful places, but I have never found another that appeals to me more than Bloomfield Manor. This is a truly one-of-a-kind area, neighborhood. What makes it special is an extraordinary combination of towering trees, natural surroundings, quiet roads, the river, the abundant wildlife. We regularly see deer, wild turkeys, coyote, foxes, groundhogs, squirrels, hawks, and many other birds. A blue heron occasionally lands in the river behind our house. It's a huge wingspan. It looks like a petrodactyl.

  86. Our wedding photographer brought us up to, brought us to the bridge on Manor Road for photographs. We both fell in love with the area that day, although at the time we could not afford to live here, there. Nearly 10 years later, with two active boys and a need for a larger home, we... Remembered those photographs and returned to Bloomfield Hills, Bloomfield Manor. We discovered the house directly behind the bridge was for sale and bought it. It has been our home ever since. During my career, I traveled extensively throughout the world for more than 50 years. I've seen many beautiful places, but I have never found another that appeals to me more than Bloomfield Manor. This is a truly one-of-a-kind area, neighborhood. What makes it special is an extraordinary combination of towering trees, natural surroundings, quiet roads, the river, the abundant wildlife. We regularly see deer, wild turkeys, coyote, foxes, groundhogs, squirrels, hawks, and many other birds. A blue heron occasionally lands in the river behind our house. It's a huge wingspan. It looks like a petrodactyl. Families walk these quiet roads. Children play along the riverbanks and also fish. And residents walk their dogs and enjoy, residents and neighbors from Birmingham also, enjoy being surrounded by nature. It feels almost like living in a treehouse, remarkably peaceful, secluded, despite being close to Birmingham and major shopping, restaurants, and other amenities. It is precisely this character that concerns me about the proposed six home development. Manor Road is already a narrow, approximately one and a half lane unpaved dirt road with significant potholes. Traffic has increased substantially in recent years, particularly when Big Beaver Road becomes congested. We are already seeing more trucks and vehicles with trailers traveling the road, sometimes at considerable speed. I have reviewed the plans for the proposed development and am concerned that the Big Beaver Road entrance will not be practical for the larger trucks and equipment required to clear the heavily wooded property and construct six homes.

  87. It looks like a petrodactyl. Families walk these quiet roads. Children play along the riverbanks and also fish. And residents walk their dogs and enjoy, residents and neighbors from Birmingham also, enjoy being surrounded by nature. It feels almost like living in a treehouse, remarkably peaceful, secluded, despite being close to Birmingham and major shopping, restaurants, and other amenities. It is precisely this character that concerns me about the proposed six home development. Manor Road is already a narrow, approximately one and a half lane unpaved dirt road with significant potholes. Traffic has increased substantially in recent years, particularly when Big Beaver Road becomes congested. We are already seeing more trucks and vehicles with trailers traveling the road, sometimes at considerable speed. I have reviewed the plans for the proposed development and am concerned that the Big Beaver Road entrance will not be practical for the larger trucks and equipment required to clear the heavily wooded property and construct six homes. If construction traffic instead uses Manor Road, residents could face years of heavy trucks, equipment, noise, dust, and additional traffic along with potential damage to the road that is already difficult to maintain. Are you pretty much done because the time is up? I'm sorry. Um. We do have the letter. Yeah, we have the letter, but thank you. Okay. So we've seen it. Appreciate it. Okay. So we've seen it. driveway, we're pretty much back up to, like, I think it was lot one or six. And we have flooding almost four times a year. I've had my basement waterproofed. I'm also the house that a car ran through the backyard when me and my son were just by the fence, maybe five minutes prior. My husband is at the city almost every day because the roads are already terrible. I cannot imagine trucks that are massive that have already been driving through our neighborhood for almost, what, two years because of the road they've been doing. And now we have to picture it going through

  88. the heavily wooded property and construct six homes. If construction traffic instead uses Manor Road, residents could face years of heavy trucks, equipment, noise, dust, and additional traffic along with potential damage to the road that is already difficult to maintain. Are you pretty much done because the time is up? I'm sorry. Um. We do have the letter. Yeah, we have the letter, but thank you. Okay. So we've seen it. Appreciate it. Okay. So we've seen it. driveway, we're pretty much back up to, like, I think it was lot one or six. And we have flooding almost four times a year. I've had my basement waterproofed. I'm also the house that a car ran through the backyard when me and my son were just by the fence, maybe five minutes prior. My husband is at the city almost every day because the roads are already terrible. I cannot imagine trucks that are massive that have already been driving through our neighborhood for almost, what, two years because of the road they've been doing. And now we have to picture it going through it all over again. And I am, like, pretty much the one that would be the most affected, in my opinion. I have pictures I can show you of when the crash happened, my driveway flooded. Also, when the sewers back up, it was almost one foot underwater. It just never ends. And I can't imagine that this would make anything any better, to be honest. But I do want to share the pictures with you guys, if that's okay, if I can walk up and show you. This is what the sewer cracks up. This is what my driveway looks like. And that's the circle driveway. So the entire thing is underwater. Can you brighten it, please? Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. Hold on. You can't even see the concrete anymore. Okay. This is when they crashed through my backyard. And it was because they were detouring people off of Brookdale and the man was not familiar. And I fought with the city to put a sign or a blinking light and all they pretty much it was put an arrow instead. So this is the one control. And we're pretty early. Thank you. my backyard and me and my baby were literally behind the fence like minutes before this is my driveway when it floods when the sewer backs up and we're literally fighting with the city almost every day to fix everything on top of it this is what the road looks like that they will probably program and we remain at the same time when we are here, XDD. Okay.

  89. what, two years because of the road they've been doing. And now we have to picture it going through it all over again. And I am, like, pretty much the one that would be the most affected, in my opinion. I have pictures I can show you of when the crash happened, my driveway flooded. Also, when the sewers back up, it was almost one foot underwater. It just never ends. And I can't imagine that this would make anything any better, to be honest. But I do want to share the pictures with you guys, if that's okay, if I can walk up and show you. This is what the sewer cracks up. This is what my driveway looks like. And that's the circle driveway. So the entire thing is underwater. Can you brighten it, please? Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. Hold on. You can't even see the concrete anymore. Okay. This is when they crashed through my backyard. And it was because they were detouring people off of Brookdale and the man was not familiar. And I fought with the city to put a sign or a blinking light and all they pretty much it was put an arrow instead. So this is the one control. And we're pretty early. Thank you. my backyard and me and my baby were literally behind the fence like minutes before this is my driveway when it floods when the sewer backs up and we're literally fighting with the city almost every day to fix everything on top of it this is what the road looks like that they will probably program and we remain at the same time when we are here, XDD. Okay. Verse number 4. be driving down and i cannot imagine that we can take any of the trucks this is what the road looks 101-25H. 13 0-16H. 16-18H. 40-16H. 1-29H. like already so i would strongly say thank you hi my name is elisa stratton i'm at 295 harrow circle So there's the order they're coming. So there's the Lines and theош Prop 4 and 26 p. you heard my husband john speak earlier we are fire survivors from california when we moved to michigan we specifically chose this neighborhood because the trees are still there we know it's like to see a place lose character through destruction whether it's fire whether it's tearing out the trees you will never get it back you can never replace those trees at those sizes in our lifetimes you can never fix that wetlands back you can't take it back to the way it is right again these spaces are approved for three houses make three houses with all due respect to mr finger root it is not the problem of our homeowners that he chose

  90. every day to fix everything on top of it this is what the road looks like that they will probably Okay. Verse number 4. be driving down and i cannot imagine that we can take any of the trucks this is what the road looks 101-25H. 13 0-16H. 16-18H. 40-16H. 1-29H. like already so i would strongly say thank you hi my name is elisa stratton i'm at 295 harrow circle So there's the order they're coming. So there's the Lines and theош Prop 4 and 26 p. you heard my husband john speak earlier we are fire survivors from california when we moved to michigan we specifically chose this neighborhood because the trees are still there we know it's like to see a place lose character through destruction whether it's fire whether it's tearing out the trees you will never get it back you can never replace those trees at those sizes in our lifetimes you can never fix that wetlands back you can't take it back to the way it is right again these spaces are approved for three houses make three houses with all due respect to mr finger root it is not the problem of our homeowners that he chose to make this property purchase when he knew that the previous owner had lost that lawsuit in a very high court as you heard in the state of michigan if you have not read that lawsuit please do the township won the builder lost for good reason there's a reason those judges know what they're doing you can hear i'm really emotional about this you have a chance to help keep this part of michigan natural a lot of places will sell out don't do it we need it we need the creatures we need the water we need that space for everyone you can walk and enjoy manor park please come it's gorgeous we're not going to get it back if you screw this up i'm sure he's a lovely guy i wish him well but not at the expense of our town not at the expense of our neighborhood this is not okay forgive me the emotion but this is a big deal because if you start splitting lots there it goes you lose it oh remember a long time ago we have that beautiful neighborhood oh yeah i was on the board that let him take that down you know that

  91. to make this property purchase when he knew that the previous owner had lost that lawsuit in a very high court as you heard in the state of michigan if you have not read that lawsuit please do the township won the builder lost for good reason there's a reason those judges know what they're doing you can hear i'm really emotional about this you have a chance to help keep this part of michigan natural a lot of places will sell out don't do it we need it we need the creatures we need the water we need that space for everyone you can walk and enjoy manor park please come it's gorgeous we're not going to get it back if you screw this up i'm sure he's a lovely guy i wish him well but not at the expense of our town not at the expense of our neighborhood this is not okay forgive me the emotion but this is a big deal because if you start splitting lots there it goes you lose it oh remember a long time ago we have that beautiful neighborhood oh yeah i was on the board that let him take that down you know that let him destroy that you don't want to be those people this is important it sets a tone for the whole township it sets a tone for the county it can set a tone if you want it to for the region for Southeast Michigan, people can point to that group of people in Bloomfield Township who fought back and said, no, this is too important to sell. We're not going to do it for the price of two extra lots. That's all we're saying. Ideally there would be nothing, but you know, he's got three lots to mess with. Let him have three lots to build. Three. Three. Don't mess with the deeds. They're over 100 years old. I don't care what anybody says. You're talking about putting a subdivision into an incredibly beautiful neighborhood. Please don't do it. My name is Michael Whitworth. I live at 663 Shepherd Bush Street, just directly behind the development. And I'll keep it quick. It's not, again, I want to start by, I will say something positive. I'll commend the developer for coming up with a 100-foot natural zone. That's a step ahead of what the last developer proposed, and to cut down the lots.

  92. that beautiful neighborhood oh yeah i was on the board that let him take that down you know that let him destroy that you don't want to be those people this is important it sets a tone for the whole township it sets a tone for the county it can set a tone if you want it to for the region for Southeast Michigan, people can point to that group of people in Bloomfield Township who fought back and said, no, this is too important to sell. We're not going to do it for the price of two extra lots. That's all we're saying. Ideally there would be nothing, but you know, he's got three lots to mess with. Let him have three lots to build. Three. Three. Don't mess with the deeds. They're over 100 years old. I don't care what anybody says. You're talking about putting a subdivision into an incredibly beautiful neighborhood. Please don't do it. My name is Michael Whitworth. I live at 663 Shepherd Bush Street, just directly behind the development. And I'll keep it quick. It's not, again, I want to start by, I will say something positive. I'll commend the developer for coming up with a 100-foot natural zone. That's a step ahead of what the last developer proposed, and to cut down the lots. But again, if you guys walk this, you're going to see the wetlands. You're going to see the uneven, steep grades on this land and how it's going to have to be developed. And what's not lost on me is that the main interest to this is at Warwick Road in Birmingham, the paved area. And it's a continuation of that. And that's a very dangerous corner. And it's my opinion that the entrance should not be there, either Opic Beaver or move somewhere else for the safety of the neighborhood. and again I I think you guys have to keep in mind that what everyone said tonight is that you have a place called Bloomfield Manor that's the character of this area it's Bloomfield Township it's not Sterling Heights it's not Troy what they're proposing as a subdivision looks like Sterling Heights that looks like Troy so please keep that in mind you guys have unique beautiful area and keep it that way thank you good evening my name is Karen Frederick and I live at 617 Tuttenham in Birmingham I've lived there over 35 years and I think you get a sense of our community how strongly we feel about this Bloomfield Township is a coveted community not only in Michigan but far broader than that I hope that

  93. That's a step ahead of what the last developer proposed, and to cut down the lots. But again, if you guys walk this, you're going to see the wetlands. You're going to see the uneven, steep grades on this land and how it's going to have to be developed. And what's not lost on me is that the main interest to this is at Warwick Road in Birmingham, the paved area. And it's a continuation of that. And that's a very dangerous corner. And it's my opinion that the entrance should not be there, either Opic Beaver or move somewhere else for the safety of the neighborhood. and again I I think you guys have to keep in mind that what everyone said tonight is that you have a place called Bloomfield Manor that's the character of this area it's Bloomfield Township it's not Sterling Heights it's not Troy what they're proposing as a subdivision looks like Sterling Heights that looks like Troy so please keep that in mind you guys have unique beautiful area and keep it that way thank you good evening my name is Karen Frederick and I live at 617 Tuttenham in Birmingham I've lived there over 35 years and I think you get a sense of our community how strongly we feel about this Bloomfield Township is a coveted community not only in Michigan but far broader than that I hope that you will keep this incredible neighborhood as special as it is three homes could be built there and that's all that it should be I hope that you will deny this proposal and thank you for listening to all of us I don't see anybody else so we'll close the public hearing and open up for discussion yeah I recorded some questions from the residents that we'd like to ask both planning and the developer as well they're welcome to respond to these is okay yeah if that's okay i guess i'll defer to the chair if you guys want to have discussion let us know but we did track questions so whenever you're ready for that similar to the last one we had i think we should hear the questions and then if any of them can be addressed but i think i'd like to take a five minute break because i have a few questions myself and if the ones that you have are different then we can see if the consultants can uh discuss them or if we want

  94. coveted community not only in Michigan but far broader than that I hope that you will keep this incredible neighborhood as special as it is three homes could be built there and that's all that it should be I hope that you will deny this proposal and thank you for listening to all of us I don't see anybody else so we'll close the public hearing and open up for discussion yeah I recorded some questions from the residents that we'd like to ask both planning and the developer as well they're welcome to respond to these is okay yeah if that's okay i guess i'll defer to the chair if you guys want to have discussion let us know but we did track questions so whenever you're ready for that similar to the last one we had i think we should hear the questions and then if any of them can be addressed but i think i'd like to take a five minute break because i have a few questions myself and if the ones that you have are different then we can see if the consultants can uh discuss them or if we want to have discussion on the board here okay good job captain do you want to have the time of five minutes for five minutes later yeah yeah so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so Thank you.

  95. you have are different then we can see if the consultants can uh discuss them or if we want to have discussion on the board here okay good job captain do you want to have the time of five minutes for five minutes later yeah yeah so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

  96. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

  97. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. When you see me, when you see me coming in the morning, I'm like, I'm being fired and I don't know why.

  98. Thank you. When you see me, when you see me coming in the morning, I'm like, I'm being fired and I don't know why. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It is to me. It's relevant. Okay. I'd like to call the meeting back to order, please. Thank you, everybody. And we heard, we're calling the meeting back to order, and we heard many comments, and we thank everybody for your comments. some of the specific questions that were brought up during the comments that they may or may not be able to be answered but at least we can put them on the table all right good evening board good evening to all of you be listing some of the questions that were asked by the residents what was most frequently asked to start by a wide margin was how will water be mitigated to avoid damages and flooding to existing homes in the area so before we hear an answer that I just wanted to add a question to that so I heard that many times and it's one of my notes and I don't know if we're specifically talking

  99. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It is to me. It's relevant. Okay. I'd like to call the meeting back to order, please. Thank you, everybody. And we heard, we're calling the meeting back to order, and we heard many comments, and we thank everybody for your comments. some of the specific questions that were brought up during the comments that they may or may not be able to be answered but at least we can put them on the table all right good evening board good evening to all of you be listing some of the questions that were asked by the residents what was most frequently asked to start by a wide margin was how will water be mitigated to avoid damages and flooding to existing homes in the area so before we hear an answer that I just wanted to add a question to that so I heard that many times and it's one of my notes and I don't know if we're specifically talking about sanitary sewer backups or stormwater and I don't know if the if if the system there is combined or if we have if the township has a separate sanitary sewer system in that neighborhood and a separate storm or no storm at all so if we could get an answer on what water we're talking about are we talking about where your toilets back up are we talking about stormwater and do we have a storm system there and then how is this project going to add to or detract from that problem to be more specific okay first I don't know whether they have a joint sewer uh currently and it could be different in birmingham than in bloomfield okay that's a good answer okay so they have joint sewer so uh when it rains it's potentially that it could back up your sanitary sewer okay this development these six houses uh you're gonna have separate storm sewer from sanitary so we won't see that and with the current engineering standards uh we develop a detention basin and we show that in

  100. times and it's one of my notes and I don't know if we're specifically talking about sanitary sewer backups or stormwater and I don't know if the if if the system there is combined or if we have if the township has a separate sanitary sewer system in that neighborhood and a separate storm or no storm at all so if we could get an answer on what water we're talking about are we talking about where your toilets back up are we talking about stormwater and do we have a storm system there and then how is this project going to add to or detract from that problem to be more specific okay first I don't know whether they have a joint sewer uh currently and it could be different in birmingham than in bloomfield okay that's a good answer okay so they have joint sewer so uh when it rains it's potentially that it could back up your sanitary sewer okay this development these six houses uh you're gonna have separate storm sewer from sanitary so we won't see that and with the current engineering standards uh we develop a detention basin and we show that in the north end of the site so when it rains the detention all the uh the impervious surface people have said okay we're paving the road we're just paving our road we're not paving any of the other roads uh any of the impervious surfaces the driveways the road the houses it all drains and goes into our detention basin where it's detained and then it's discharged at something uh similar to a historic rate and in this case we're discharging it about 40 percent less than the historic rate and the engineering standards require that any property adjacent property that historically takes flow has to continue to take flow once the uh development is done but we're actually reducing it so are you do you know if the existing properties any one of them or multiple properties drain onto this property that we're speaking of do any of theirs drain out to ours yeah you just said if historically yeah there's drainage flowing over the property you can't just say cut i'm cutting it off so do we know what the person i don't believe there's anything flowing onto our property if there is we're going to continue to accept it okay is there any would you

  101. and with the current engineering standards uh we develop a detention basin and we show that in the north end of the site so when it rains the detention all the uh the impervious surface people have said okay we're paving the road we're just paving our road we're not paving any of the other roads uh any of the impervious surfaces the driveways the road the houses it all drains and goes into our detention basin where it's detained and then it's discharged at something uh similar to a historic rate and in this case we're discharging it about 40 percent less than the historic rate and the engineering standards require that any property adjacent property that historically takes flow has to continue to take flow once the uh development is done but we're actually reducing it so are you do you know if the existing properties any one of them or multiple properties drain onto this property that we're speaking of do any of theirs drain out to ours yeah you just said if historically yeah there's drainage flowing over the property you can't just say cut i'm cutting it off so do we know what the person i don't believe there's anything flowing onto our property if there is we're going to continue to accept it okay is there any would you there's no stream we're waiting for that answer and there's a specific reason i'm asking the question is okay so the question is specifically are there any of our adjacent neighbors that drain onto our that's the first question okay there's a minuscule amount oh name and address yeah sure matt bush with that well address 101 north main ann arbor um all right so there is minuscule drainage coming into the wetland system and the water course on our site one thing to know that all of the drainage from the site through the water course goes to the north away from all the residents to the south that so we do accept a little bit of drainage but that's all taken care of and goes to the north and we detain all of our storm water so just so i understand and the residents understand whatever water is coming onto your site is going to flow through as it normally does tomorrow morning if it rains right and any of your water that's collected is going to be held in the detention pond and and released at specific rate that's determined by you know the oakland county drain

  102. we're going to continue to accept it okay is there any would you there's no stream we're waiting for that answer and there's a specific reason i'm asking the question is okay so the question is specifically are there any of our adjacent neighbors that drain onto our that's the first question okay there's a minuscule amount oh name and address yeah sure matt bush with that well address 101 north main ann arbor um all right so there is minuscule drainage coming into the wetland system and the water course on our site one thing to know that all of the drainage from the site through the water course goes to the north away from all the residents to the south that so we do accept a little bit of drainage but that's all taken care of and goes to the north and we detain all of our storm water so just so i understand and the residents understand whatever water is coming onto your site is going to flow through as it normally does tomorrow morning if it rains right and any of your water that's collected is going to be held in the detention pond and and released at specific rate that's determined by you know the oakland county drain whoever has jurisdiction and i wanted to ask is it contemplated that the water that the i assume each unit would have a basement correct yes so is it is it contemplated that all the water collected around the basement gets discharged into that same pond do there are there separate leads for that water so it ends up in the pond as well that's probably a building department question in some municipalities you tie your um your sumps right into the storm system in other municipalities uh you discharge it is surface discharge just away from your house and quite frankly i don't recall what it is in bloomfield township or ultimately all right well engineer doesn't plan i mean when you designed the i assume you had designed by cubic feet right did you design for that system to collect uh sump water discharge as well or you don't recall well the stormwater detention basins are designed for all surface drainage um as far as the sump discharge whether it goes it'll most likely be surface drainage into the existing water course in the rears we could also take it to the storm sewer system but okay so a it could handle it because it's from the surface that's already

  103. whoever has jurisdiction and i wanted to ask is it contemplated that the water that the i assume each unit would have a basement correct yes so is it is it contemplated that all the water collected around the basement gets discharged into that same pond do there are there separate leads for that water so it ends up in the pond as well that's probably a building department question in some municipalities you tie your um your sumps right into the storm system in other municipalities uh you discharge it is surface discharge just away from your house and quite frankly i don't recall what it is in bloomfield township or ultimately all right well engineer doesn't plan i mean when you designed the i assume you had designed by cubic feet right did you design for that system to collect uh sump water discharge as well or you don't recall well the stormwater detention basins are designed for all surface drainage um as far as the sump discharge whether it goes it'll most likely be surface drainage into the existing water course in the rears we could also take it to the storm sewer system but okay so a it could handle it because it's from the surface that's already calculated and b you're willing to make sure that there's a lead and then it ends up in the system if that were to happen yeah and that's pretty typical of most engineering practice okay I think that explains the water question, unless there was something more specific. Yeah, I think the paving question, but I think Howard answered the paving question about what's going to be paved. Yeah, we're just paving our private road. We're not touching anything on any of the adjacent roads. Well, you're talking specifically about paving? Yes. You're paving the road that feeds the six units that are proposed and no other paving? Correct. Okay. Nor would we, I mean, we're paving on our property. We don't have the right to paving on anybody else's. Okay. All right, I'll get on to the next question. There was talk about the previous ruling and the previous proposals that had come to this site and what the differences were between those two proposals and why there are more lots being proposed. And also a related question would be about the access to Big Beaver Road with that house.

  104. storm sewer system but okay so a it could handle it because it's from the surface that's already calculated and b you're willing to make sure that there's a lead and then it ends up in the system if that were to happen yeah and that's pretty typical of most engineering practice okay I think that explains the water question, unless there was something more specific. Yeah, I think the paving question, but I think Howard answered the paving question about what's going to be paved. Yeah, we're just paving our private road. We're not touching anything on any of the adjacent roads. Well, you're talking specifically about paving? Yes. You're paving the road that feeds the six units that are proposed and no other paving? Correct. Okay. Nor would we, I mean, we're paving on our property. We don't have the right to paving on anybody else's. Okay. All right, I'll get on to the next question. There was talk about the previous ruling and the previous proposals that had come to this site and what the differences were between those two proposals and why there are more lots being proposed. And also a related question would be about the access to Big Beaver Road with that house. As someone mentioned a recommendation about removing a house, that's not appropriate to the question, but previous rulings and numbers and how those relate to the ones now. So I personally don't have any knowledge of the lawsuit. So I don't know if anybody, maybe Andrea, you could explain if the lawsuit stipulated that there could only be five units is what I heard. There was a lawsuit in which you heard this evening that was withheld that the township prevailed in their denial of a lot split. What we have today is an application with a new owner for a site, for a PUD essentially, a site condo option within our zoning ordinance. So it's a completely separate review. The requirements are very different than that of a lot split. So this is essentially an entirely new application being reviewed under the open space preservation. So this is not an application for a lot split. This is an application for open space preservation in compliance with the provisions within our ordinance.

  105. And also a related question would be about the access to Big Beaver Road with that house. As someone mentioned a recommendation about removing a house, that's not appropriate to the question, but previous rulings and numbers and how those relate to the ones now. So I personally don't have any knowledge of the lawsuit. So I don't know if anybody, maybe Andrea, you could explain if the lawsuit stipulated that there could only be five units is what I heard. There was a lawsuit in which you heard this evening that was withheld that the township prevailed in their denial of a lot split. What we have today is an application with a new owner for a site, for a PUD essentially, a site condo option within our zoning ordinance. So it's a completely separate review. The requirements are very different than that of a lot split. So this is essentially an entirely new application being reviewed under the open space preservation. So this is not an application for a lot split. This is an application for open space preservation in compliance with the provisions within our ordinance. In terms of whether or not the five lots was ever, I guess that would be something that we certainly could get an interpretation or a response from our attorney. To see if there was a ruling that held it to five lots. But I'm not aware of there being a five lot criteria or ruling on this property. The ruling was that the township had discretion. I can only tell you, obviously I wasn't involved in that, but I did read everything. Okay. Because for due diligence. It was, what the developer tried to do there is just come in with a lot split and said that the lot split was mandatory. I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you There were no plans. I mean, it wasn't like there was no open space preserved. It wasn't anything like that. Just like split the property into eight lots, I think it was, or whatever the number was, because those complied with the zoning ordinance. And then they can go ahead and do what they wanted to, build the units, tear down the trees, whatever it was. And that the township had no discretion to say no. And that's what the litigation was about. The township said no, based upon provisions of your lot split

  106. This is an application for open space preservation in compliance with the provisions within our ordinance. In terms of whether or not the five lots was ever, I guess that would be something that we certainly could get an interpretation or a response from our attorney. To see if there was a ruling that held it to five lots. But I'm not aware of there being a five lot criteria or ruling on this property. The ruling was that the township had discretion. I can only tell you, obviously I wasn't involved in that, but I did read everything. Okay. Because for due diligence. It was, what the developer tried to do there is just come in with a lot split and said that the lot split was mandatory. I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you, I can only tell you There were no plans. I mean, it wasn't like there was no open space preserved. It wasn't anything like that. Just like split the property into eight lots, I think it was, or whatever the number was, because those complied with the zoning ordinance. And then they can go ahead and do what they wanted to, build the units, tear down the trees, whatever it was. And that the township had no discretion to say no. And that's what the litigation was about. The township said no, based upon provisions of your lot split ordinance that you still have today. And the litigation was whether or not you had the authority to say no, I believe. Because they were arguing that the lot split was done under the Michigan State Land Division Act, which is the state statute. And it was mandatory for you to approve it as presented. That was the litigation. So I, again. The court said you had discretion. I understand that we're reviewing it under a completely different standard, but I just want it to be clear for myself and for the residents. So when the township said no and there was a lawsuit, was the outcome, you just can't split the lots because you didn't follow the rules at the time? Or was there? No, I think it was the township denied the lot split for various reasons, including, I mean, like, you don't have, you didn't have the facts that you have here, like preservation of trees or anything like that. And, um, and. And. That part was the plan. That's when, of course, what else did you do here? Well. And the argument in that case, at least the developer then argued, that you had no discretion to say no for whatever the reasons, character of the neighborhood, anything like that. And the court said that you had the discretion to, you know, under your ordinance, you have

  107. The township said no, based upon provisions of your lot split ordinance that you still have today. And the litigation was whether or not you had the authority to say no, I believe. Because they were arguing that the lot split was done under the Michigan State Land Division Act, which is the state statute. And it was mandatory for you to approve it as presented. That was the litigation. So I, again. The court said you had discretion. I understand that we're reviewing it under a completely different standard, but I just want it to be clear for myself and for the residents. So when the township said no and there was a lawsuit, was the outcome, you just can't split the lots because you didn't follow the rules at the time? Or was there? No, I think it was the township denied the lot split for various reasons, including, I mean, like, you don't have, you didn't have the facts that you have here, like preservation of trees or anything like that. And, um, and. And. That part was the plan. That's when, of course, what else did you do here? Well. And the argument in that case, at least the developer then argued, that you had no discretion to say no for whatever the reasons, character of the neighborhood, anything like that. And the court said that you had the discretion to, you know, under your ordinance, you have a lot split ordinance too, that under your lot split ordinance you had the discretion to make a decision, you said no, and the court, I didn't, I can't remember if they just, you know, just they upheld your decision in that regard. Whatever the reasons were that was within your discretion to make that decision. Okay. That's fine. So that was, that's, that's the case is closed. Different case. They made the decision that the lot split is not allowed and the judge agreed. With regard to the entrance, I heard that the township denied or didn't recommend that any entrance be from Big Beaver. Or do we have any knowledge of how that came about? I can't say that the township directed the developer to locate or to design the layout the way it's being presented. Were there discussions about, I can't say, I don't recall that conversation where we ever said it has to come in off that road. So we review what's presented by the applicant. We do not design projects. We review what's being presented by the applicant, which is what's occurring currently. So then for the applicant, you know, Mr. Fingerwood, did you ever consider Big Beaver? And if you did, did you review what one, no?

  108. And the court said that you had the discretion to, you know, under your ordinance, you have a lot split ordinance too, that under your lot split ordinance you had the discretion to make a decision, you said no, and the court, I didn't, I can't remember if they just, you know, just they upheld your decision in that regard. Whatever the reasons were that was within your discretion to make that decision. Okay. That's fine. So that was, that's, that's the case is closed. Different case. They made the decision that the lot split is not allowed and the judge agreed. With regard to the entrance, I heard that the township denied or didn't recommend that any entrance be from Big Beaver. Or do we have any knowledge of how that came about? I can't say that the township directed the developer to locate or to design the layout the way it's being presented. Were there discussions about, I can't say, I don't recall that conversation where we ever said it has to come in off that road. So we review what's presented by the applicant. We do not design projects. We review what's being presented by the applicant, which is what's occurring currently. So then for the applicant, you know, Mr. Fingerwood, did you ever consider Big Beaver? And if you did, did you review what one, no? it out for we discussed in early meetings um and i think patty might have even been there at the time i don't recall um and we just thought that that wasn't a good approach to developing these homes we thought it'd be much better more quaint to come in off a manner and i think it's the right and here's a here's a if i can you know we need to we need to maintain order if we're going to have a meaningful discussion and if i can kind of address this um we're what we're proposing actually provides we we're going to have an easement to keep over 50 percent in its natural state if we kept it and we're not we're going to propose this and i and i don't i and i don't want to do this i'm saying if we had three lots there and people build the mega mansions and you see them next door and you know there's some big houses huge houses with multiple tennis courts you can put pickleball courts you can put swimming pools you'd cut down more trees than what i'm proposing if you look at our submission we have our grading limits you can see where we're grading we're we're grading the right away we're grading into the i think the up to the uh uh setback line of the front setback of the house we we show exactly we can't go in and they say oh you're going to cut

  109. it out for we discussed in early meetings um and i think patty might have even been there at the time i don't recall um and we just thought that that wasn't a good approach to developing these homes we thought it'd be much better more quaint to come in off a manner and i think it's the right and here's a here's a if i can you know we need to we need to maintain order if we're going to have a meaningful discussion and if i can kind of address this um we're what we're proposing actually provides we we're going to have an easement to keep over 50 percent in its natural state if we kept it and we're not we're going to propose this and i and i don't i and i don't want to do this i'm saying if we had three lots there and people build the mega mansions and you see them next door and you know there's some big houses huge houses with multiple tennis courts you can put pickleball courts you can put swimming pools you'd cut down more trees than what i'm proposing if you look at our submission we have our grading limits you can see where we're grading we're we're grading the right away we're grading into the i think the up to the uh uh setback line of the front setback of the house we we show exactly we can't go in and they say oh you're going to cut down more trees no we're not as soon as we start development we put a silt fence up and the township comes and they walk the silt fence with the plan and they make sure they say okay you can grade on this side you can't touch anything on that side you So we're not going to be, we're going to actually preserve more than what it could be if it was just three lots. I understand, but we want to try to address specific questions because you could also say that if there was three Megan mansions, there'd be three driveway cuts. I mean, but we're not, we don't want to go there yet. I apologize. We just want to answer the questions so that we have as much information, but we want our residents to have as much information as well, not just us. Mr. Chair, I have a quick question while we're on this topic. So will the board be discussing this after we go through this? You want me to ask now? Okay, then I'll hold my question. Okay, 100%. One of the final questions that we really want to address here is the, sorry, I lost my place on here. I apologize. Yeah, I have this one. We've been talking about character of the community a lot tonight, and I think a lot of residents are wondering, how will that character be ensured in the neighborhood?

  110. the front setback of the house we we show exactly we can't go in and they say oh you're going to cut down more trees no we're not as soon as we start development we put a silt fence up and the township comes and they walk the silt fence with the plan and they make sure they say okay you can grade on this side you can't touch anything on that side you So we're not going to be, we're going to actually preserve more than what it could be if it was just three lots. I understand, but we want to try to address specific questions because you could also say that if there was three Megan mansions, there'd be three driveway cuts. I mean, but we're not, we don't want to go there yet. I apologize. We just want to answer the questions so that we have as much information, but we want our residents to have as much information as well, not just us. Mr. Chair, I have a quick question while we're on this topic. So will the board be discussing this after we go through this? You want me to ask now? Okay, then I'll hold my question. Okay, 100%. One of the final questions that we really want to address here is the, sorry, I lost my place on here. I apologize. Yeah, I have this one. We've been talking about character of the community a lot tonight, and I think a lot of residents are wondering, how will that character be ensured in the neighborhood? There's talks about, you know, HOAs and things like that. So how will that character that a lot of the residents seem to want to uphold, how will that be upheld in the Hamlet? Home design, anything like that, I mean, if there's a neighborhood association or anything like that, it doesn't matter. I mean, just in my opinion, different features affect how I feel about the character of the neighborhood or somebody living. Living. there or if i was going to move in i think that's subjective but in addition to wanting to understand the questions and addressing them we also are looking at the zoning of the property because it is zone r3 correct correct and we whether we like it or whether we don't we have to honor what the property is owned i don't think it's been zoned anything else for the past 106 years or whatever i heard and um other things that i heard about uh you know during construction i mean there's been construction projects on single homes and you probably know every one of them that have lasted

  111. how will that character be ensured in the neighborhood? There's talks about, you know, HOAs and things like that. So how will that character that a lot of the residents seem to want to uphold, how will that be upheld in the Hamlet? Home design, anything like that, I mean, if there's a neighborhood association or anything like that, it doesn't matter. I mean, just in my opinion, different features affect how I feel about the character of the neighborhood or somebody living. Living. there or if i was going to move in i think that's subjective but in addition to wanting to understand the questions and addressing them we also are looking at the zoning of the property because it is zone r3 correct correct and we whether we like it or whether we don't we have to honor what the property is owned i don't think it's been zoned anything else for the past 106 years or whatever i heard and um other things that i heard about uh you know during construction i mean there's been construction projects on single homes and you probably know every one of them that have lasted for three to five years just a single home and as far as the erosion is concerned i mean when i i'm a contractor and if i have six ounces of erosion i get a phone call or knock on the door saying you better fix this or do that or you're going to be fined or we're going to do it and back charge you and there are stringent requirements for maintaining things that you say you're going to do and again paving of the road was answered we talked about the lawsuit the water the water did you say that was the the one the last predominant question or are there more from what i collected um listening to that i think those were very primary concerns i know there are also ones but you you traffic and safety um but i know that is the discussion of the board so thank you thank you okay so thank you for your comments i'd like to open up can i there was one other question that came up like three or four times if um it had to do with the off-site water main and there was a concern that we're ripping up the roads and open you you stated that you're doing a directional board so that you won't have to rip up the road at all exactly so i just wanted and that's the full entire length i don't know where the connection is you mentioned it before at the

  112. construction projects on single homes and you probably know every one of them that have lasted for three to five years just a single home and as far as the erosion is concerned i mean when i i'm a contractor and if i have six ounces of erosion i get a phone call or knock on the door saying you better fix this or do that or you're going to be fined or we're going to do it and back charge you and there are stringent requirements for maintaining things that you say you're going to do and again paving of the road was answered we talked about the lawsuit the water the water did you say that was the the one the last predominant question or are there more from what i collected um listening to that i think those were very primary concerns i know there are also ones but you you traffic and safety um but i know that is the discussion of the board so thank you thank you okay so thank you for your comments i'd like to open up can i there was one other question that came up like three or four times if um it had to do with the off-site water main and there was a concern that we're ripping up the roads and open you you stated that you're doing a directional board so that you won't have to rip up the road at all exactly so i just wanted and that's the full entire length i don't know where the connection is you mentioned it before at the intersection of yeah so it's going to be bored all the way to the the the bore pit where the pipe comes out is going to be on your property correct there'll be two bore pits one on each side one will be in a right away one will be on our property in between you won't know that right okay i mean they'll be installing the fire hydrant so i'd like to i'd like to open it up for discussion with this board so if anybody if you want to start i have a good question so um this might be for andrea but are there other situations in the township where a site condo um development like this has been done where an hoa is already established like a neighborhood i know that um sacred heart sold that land you know um are there other situations where it's been kind of acquired as part of a current neighborhood with a homeowners association already intact not the two examples that I'm the most familiar with, which is the Brookdale project that was down by the Blue School off Wing Lake. That was not. And then as you mentioned, Legacy Hills. Those are the two open space preservation developments that have, as far as I'm concerned or aware of, I think maybe only the other two that have been developed under this provision.

  113. full entire length i don't know where the connection is you mentioned it before at the intersection of yeah so it's going to be bored all the way to the the the bore pit where the pipe comes out is going to be on your property correct there'll be two bore pits one on each side one will be in a right away one will be on our property in between you won't know that right okay i mean they'll be installing the fire hydrant so i'd like to i'd like to open it up for discussion with this board so if anybody if you want to start i have a good question so um this might be for andrea but are there other situations in the township where a site condo um development like this has been done where an hoa is already established like a neighborhood i know that um sacred heart sold that land you know um are there other situations where it's been kind of acquired as part of a current neighborhood with a homeowners association already intact not the two examples that I'm the most familiar with, which is the Brookdale project that was down by the Blue School off Wing Lake. That was not. And then as you mentioned, Legacy Hills. Those are the two open space preservation developments that have, as far as I'm concerned or aware of, I think maybe only the other two that have been developed under this provision. I don't recall any, I'm not aware of any, I shouldn't say I don't recall, I'm not aware of any prior to Sacred Heart of being under the open space preservation. The two that I know, I'd say no. But are already part of a neighborhood. Those two examples were not. Okay. Right. That's my question. Mr. Burnett? I'm still waiting to list. Excuse me, there's another site plan meeting. How does that work? Would we still be talking about this or does the other one get postponed? I'm just curious. We're going to continue with our business and we'll take the agenda as it comes. Okay. I'm just curious. Thank you. Any other comments? Well, I have conflicting thoughts. Property rights is very important to the discernment of what we do. And I think the developer's done a fairly heady job with the unique application of the open space that the township provides. and I'm persuaded that they put a lot of work through the open space wherein it might rite,

  114. of, I think maybe only the other two that have been developed under this provision. I don't recall any, I'm not aware of any, I shouldn't say I don't recall, I'm not aware of any prior to Sacred Heart of being under the open space preservation. The two that I know, I'd say no. But are already part of a neighborhood. Those two examples were not. Okay. Right. That's my question. Mr. Burnett? I'm still waiting to list. Excuse me, there's another site plan meeting. How does that work? Would we still be talking about this or does the other one get postponed? I'm just curious. We're going to continue with our business and we'll take the agenda as it comes. Okay. I'm just curious. Thank you. Any other comments? Well, I have conflicting thoughts. Property rights is very important to the discernment of what we do. And I think the developer's done a fairly heady job with the unique application of the open space that the township provides. and I'm persuaded that they put a lot of work through the open space wherein it might rite, into making that work with this Rubik's Cube. However, if there was ever an instance where the character of the surrounding was so persuasive and pervasive, I think it's here. I think it's a hard climb for me to be persuaded that the right of the development supersedes what the character of the environment is. That's where I'm stuck. I don't see anything. I mean, you know, the utility discharges and the connectivity, all of these have engineering data that are readily verified and have oversight and we have engineering departments and engineers and everybody involved. I know people think that contractors

  115. into making that work with this Rubik's Cube. However, if there was ever an instance where the character of the surrounding was so persuasive and pervasive, I think it's here. I think it's a hard climb for me to be persuaded that the right of the development supersedes what the character of the environment is. That's where I'm stuck. I don't see anything. I mean, you know, the utility discharges and the connectivity, all of these have engineering data that are readily verified and have oversight and we have engineering departments and engineers and everybody involved. I know people think that contractors show up and do whatever they want and we don't. You follow more rules than you follow in the daily life and the vast majority of us are trying to be good and do good and operate properly and of course there's a lot of oversight. for that, but I know this area. I've remodeled homes in this area and it is unique. And it's hard to think that this is in concert with the theme that has existed there for a long time. And that's not a criticism of the developer's work, which I think has been fairly and equitably done with the machinations of setbacks and the preservation area and the open space and all that. But I just think that there's a unique character to this area. I would concur. I know this area really well. I'm familiar with everything that's going on there, including previous proposals. Not that it's relevant. It really is not relevant, but I'm just familiar with it.

  116. engineers and everybody involved. I know people think that contractors show up and do whatever they want and we don't. You follow more rules than you follow in the daily life and the vast majority of us are trying to be good and do good and operate properly and of course there's a lot of oversight. for that, but I know this area. I've remodeled homes in this area and it is unique. And it's hard to think that this is in concert with the theme that has existed there for a long time. And that's not a criticism of the developer's work, which I think has been fairly and equitably done with the machinations of setbacks and the preservation area and the open space and all that. But I just think that there's a unique character to this area. I would concur. I know this area really well. I'm familiar with everything that's going on there, including previous proposals. Not that it's relevant. It really is not relevant, but I'm just familiar with it. It is a beautiful area. It's one of the prettiest areas in the township. And certainly the developer has his property rights and he knows what the proposals were that were presented to him as far as his options. It is a very difficult decision. Because on one hand, the developer has done everything that he needs to do with that property. The Open Space Preservation Act has provided 50% of protecting the properties and surrounding character of the property. But I am concerned about how it doesn't protect the character of the neighborhood. No fault of his. It's just that if there are going to be six lots, it's going to change. If there are going to be three lots, obviously it has less of an impact or very little impact at all on the neighborhood.

  117. I know this area really well. I'm familiar with everything that's going on there, including previous proposals. Not that it's relevant. It really is not relevant, but I'm just familiar with it. It is a beautiful area. It's one of the prettiest areas in the township. And certainly the developer has his property rights and he knows what the proposals were that were presented to him as far as his options. It is a very difficult decision. Because on one hand, the developer has done everything that he needs to do with that property. The Open Space Preservation Act has provided 50% of protecting the properties and surrounding character of the property. But I am concerned about how it doesn't protect the character of the neighborhood. No fault of his. It's just that if there are going to be six lots, it's going to change. If there are going to be three lots, obviously it has less of an impact or very little impact at all on the neighborhood. So, yeah, I'm having a difficult time because it's such a beautiful area and has its own character that is very unlike many others in the whole community. I think it's a wonderful development and a great, great concept, but I'm not so convinced that it's compatible, like you just said. You know, we interact with folks all the time about pieces of property that have laid fallow that people have made their own park. It's not your own park. It's somebody else. else's property. So that's a delicate balance for people to understand. You know, we just went through that on Telegraph and we're going through it in another area and it happens often. And the property rights of the individual to develop it, you know, weigh heavy and are usually preeminent just like they would be for you to build your home. But I don't know I'm persuaded that it's just not right for this community and that's where I'm going to stand.

  118. If there are going to be three lots, obviously it has less of an impact or very little impact at all on the neighborhood. So, yeah, I'm having a difficult time because it's such a beautiful area and has its own character that is very unlike many others in the whole community. I think it's a wonderful development and a great, great concept, but I'm not so convinced that it's compatible, like you just said. You know, we interact with folks all the time about pieces of property that have laid fallow that people have made their own park. It's not your own park. It's somebody else. else's property. So that's a delicate balance for people to understand. You know, we just went through that on Telegraph and we're going through it in another area and it happens often. And the property rights of the individual to develop it, you know, weigh heavy and are usually preeminent just like they would be for you to build your home. But I don't know I'm persuaded that it's just not right for this community and that's where I'm going to stand. Let's take a vote, Richie. Well, we have to have a motion to take a vote, so. Okay, I'll make a motion. I'll make a motion that we deny. Recommend. Recommend, deny. Can I speak, Chair? Sure. Just to clarify to the members of the audience that the Planning Commissions are recommending the main body. They have a recommendation that would be forwarded on to the Township Board. So it's not a final determination that they can make this evening. So I just want to make that clear. Sorry. Would it be out of order if we can answer a question? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't thought of it right now. No? No. It's kind of late because there's a motion on the table. I'll second the motion. Roll call. We'll go. Just this place. For a motion, could you repeat the motion, please? Did you want to say something now? No, not yet. Could you repeat the motion, please? Pardon me, to deny the motion. The motion is to deny. To deny, recommend to deny, okay. And there's a second.

  119. I'm persuaded that it's just not right for this community and that's where I'm going to stand. Let's take a vote, Richie. Well, we have to have a motion to take a vote, so. Okay, I'll make a motion. I'll make a motion that we deny. Recommend. Recommend, deny. Can I speak, Chair? Sure. Just to clarify to the members of the audience that the Planning Commissions are recommending the main body. They have a recommendation that would be forwarded on to the Township Board. So it's not a final determination that they can make this evening. So I just want to make that clear. Sorry. Would it be out of order if we can answer a question? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't thought of it right now. No? No. It's kind of late because there's a motion on the table. I'll second the motion. Roll call. We'll go. Just this place. For a motion, could you repeat the motion, please? Did you want to say something now? No, not yet. Could you repeat the motion, please? Pardon me, to deny the motion. The motion is to deny. To deny, recommend to deny, okay. And there's a second. Could I recommend that there would be a reason stated? What are reasons stated for your recommendation for denial? I think the reason- Not harmonious? Right, exactly as my colleague pointed out. We can amend the motion to say that we recommend denying the applicant's proposal. Based on the current, the current proposal. We find that the proposal is not in keeping with the character of the neighborhood. Support. Are you calling the roll? Who made the motion, though, because it sounded like you did, okay, and you made a friendly amendment. Do you accept his friendly amendment? Yes. Okay, and then you second it. Okay, roll call. So, this would be a vote to recommend denial. Kelly? If you say yes, it's supporting them. Yes, I support them. Thank you. Selick? Yes. Atto? No. No. Barnett? Yes. O'Donnell? Yes. So, motion carries. Four to one. So, the recommendation will be forwarded on to the township board for a recommendation.

  120. Could I recommend that there would be a reason stated? What are reasons stated for your recommendation for denial? I think the reason- Not harmonious? Right, exactly as my colleague pointed out. We can amend the motion to say that we recommend denying the applicant's proposal. Based on the current, the current proposal. We find that the proposal is not in keeping with the character of the neighborhood. Support. Are you calling the roll? Who made the motion, though, because it sounded like you did, okay, and you made a friendly amendment. Do you accept his friendly amendment? Yes. Okay, and then you second it. Okay, roll call. So, this would be a vote to recommend denial. Kelly? If you say yes, it's supporting them. Yes, I support them. Thank you. Selick? Yes. Atto? No. No. Barnett? Yes. O'Donnell? Yes. So, motion carries. Four to one. So, the recommendation will be forwarded on to the township board for a recommendation. for denial. Thank you everybody. Thank you. Good luck. We have another case. We do have another case, yes. It's a site plan for Mulberry Square. Yeah, if you guys could go out in the hallway that would be great because we have another hearing. Thank you. I'm going to stand up. Maybe he'll come back with us a moment. Alrighty then. Is the other party still here? I think he left. No, just one person. Oh, they're here? He'll sell them tomorrow. Of course. There's three driveway cars. No retention plan. I agree, but... So, can we get this in on three? List of bill three. I don't know. I read it. I read it. But yes, I should have bought it. Contention. I guess we're moving to... Yeah. I agree. There we go. And that's what we did last time.

  121. for denial. Thank you everybody. Thank you. Good luck. We have another case. We do have another case, yes. It's a site plan for Mulberry Square. Yeah, if you guys could go out in the hallway that would be great because we have another hearing. Thank you. I'm going to stand up. Maybe he'll come back with us a moment. Alrighty then. Is the other party still here? I think he left. No, just one person. Oh, they're here? He'll sell them tomorrow. Of course. There's three driveway cars. No retention plan. I agree, but... So, can we get this in on three? List of bill three. I don't know. I read it. I read it. But yes, I should have bought it. Contention. I guess we're moving to... Yeah. I agree. There we go. And that's what we did last time. Okay. So, we have the Mulberry condominiums to be presented by Mr. Fox. is our new deputy our new deputy director this is his first presentation the Planning Commission so but he did such a good job this afternoon with the designer view he did a great job and he is doing a great job as deputy director so take it over mr. Fox I'm here to talk about the proposal for a site plan review for constructing additional carports and redoing the parking lots and storm water storm management system for mulberry square post project is is including demolition of all the existing carports and a bunch of the landscaped areas in those in that area along those properties to accommodate additional carports and

  122. Yeah. I agree. There we go. And that's what we did last time. Okay. So, we have the Mulberry condominiums to be presented by Mr. Fox. is our new deputy our new deputy director this is his first presentation the Planning Commission so but he did such a good job this afternoon with the designer view he did a great job and he is doing a great job as deputy director so take it over mr. Fox I'm here to talk about the proposal for a site plan review for constructing additional carports and redoing the parking lots and storm water storm management system for mulberry square post project is is including demolition of all the existing carports and a bunch of the landscaped areas in those in that area along those properties to accommodate additional carports and the reconstruction of the parking lot the parking lot is gonna is basically the exact same as it was before with the addition of some underground stormwater detention and new new storm sewer system put in place to to mitigate the site um post post parking lot renovation is going to be um it's going to be a new curb and gutter parking lot with um you know all restriped the the existing spaces are already um less than the required by our ordinance due to the existing nature of the property so they won't be changing i think the only problem they have is the depth is not 20 feet it's less it's 17 feet they have an existing concrete wall all the way around the property that they intend to uh to maintain as our part of their screening for the for the new carports and they are there's areas of landscaping that they're going to be removing

  123. those in that area along those properties to accommodate additional carports and the reconstruction of the parking lot the parking lot is gonna is basically the exact same as it was before with the addition of some underground stormwater detention and new new storm sewer system put in place to to mitigate the site um post post parking lot renovation is going to be um it's going to be a new curb and gutter parking lot with um you know all restriped the the existing spaces are already um less than the required by our ordinance due to the existing nature of the property so they won't be changing i think the only problem they have is the depth is not 20 feet it's less it's 17 feet they have an existing concrete wall all the way around the property that they intend to uh to maintain as our part of their screening for the for the new carports and they are there's areas of landscaping that they're going to be removing around the perimeter of the parking lot which has some fencing behind it i have some photos of that here some of these areas right in the middle these areas are going to be removed and the parking lot extended through those areas and carports to be expected over them as well um the area at the very um i guess it would be the west end of this property or the the small end of this property there is a carport there existing um as you can see in this picture here there's a carport here that will be removed as the underwater underground detention is going to go in that location uh so they're not going to build a structure over top of the existing or over top of the new underground basin um but they will be filling in these voids along the south side of the property or along the the road side of the property here and uh and making them solid in both the actually to east and the west side of the property it's crooked on the plan but um they will be uh putting in some additional be a couple of trees that have to

  124. carports and they are there's areas of landscaping that they're going to be removing around the perimeter of the parking lot which has some fencing behind it i have some photos of that here some of these areas right in the middle these areas are going to be removed and the parking lot extended through those areas and carports to be expected over them as well um the area at the very um i guess it would be the west end of this property or the the small end of this property there is a carport there existing um as you can see in this picture here there's a carport here that will be removed as the underwater underground detention is going to go in that location uh so they're not going to build a structure over top of the existing or over top of the new underground basin um but they will be filling in these voids along the south side of the property or along the the road side of the property here and uh and making them solid in both the actually to east and the west side of the property it's crooked on the plan but um they will be uh putting in some additional be a couple of trees that have to be removed very i think it's three or four trees um that are along uh along the roadway here that are that will be in interference with uh with the new retaining wall or the new wall that they're going to put back up to to screen the carports but they they are presenting to plant all these additional plantings along the outside of that wall to help screen that from view along the mulberry road um the carport design they're proposing is is is just a a sloped roof a shed roof style a little different than what they have existing existing they have uh the style with with the returns on both ends of it they're just going to go with a little more simple design this works better for the long distances that they're intending to to run them consistently down the sides of the property um both police and fire have looked at this and they both don't have any issues with it it's not going to impede any of the traffic flows as they have it already they're not intending to cut any new openings or change any of the access points or anything of

  125. plan but um they will be uh putting in some additional be a couple of trees that have to be removed very i think it's three or four trees um that are along uh along the roadway here that are that will be in interference with uh with the new retaining wall or the new wall that they're going to put back up to to screen the carports but they they are presenting to plant all these additional plantings along the outside of that wall to help screen that from view along the mulberry road um the carport design they're proposing is is is just a a sloped roof a shed roof style a little different than what they have existing existing they have uh the style with with the returns on both ends of it they're just going to go with a little more simple design this works better for the long distances that they're intending to to run them consistently down the sides of the property um both police and fire have looked at this and they both don't have any issues with it it's not going to impede any of the traffic flows as they have it already they're not intending to cut any new openings or change any of the access points or anything of that nature um if anything it'll like the north end will help increase the flow by removing that the carport that's up there make it a little easier to get around that chart point at the end especially with fire trucks and things of that nature um they will be required to go to uh zoning board for the issues that they have with the parking the carpet yeah parking spaces and uh all the accessory structures even though they're existing they're replacing them all so they're gonna have to go for zoning for that because they're accessory structures right because our accessory so i believe everything else is let's get on that sorry bear with me a second we're hoping to uh consider site plan approval for uh

  126. they're not intending to cut any new openings or change any of the access points or anything of that nature um if anything it'll like the north end will help increase the flow by removing that the carport that's up there make it a little easier to get around that chart point at the end especially with fire trucks and things of that nature um they will be required to go to uh zoning board for the issues that they have with the parking the carpet yeah parking spaces and uh all the accessory structures even though they're existing they're replacing them all so they're gonna have to go for zoning for that because they're accessory structures right because our accessory so i believe everything else is let's get on that sorry bear with me a second we're hoping to uh consider site plan approval for uh placement of the drive and the new carports compliant with the zoning board approval and with all the township ordinances and requirements. Okay, excellent. So the, just, I want to clarify that there's gaps in the walls now, the existing masonry wall. Yes. They're going to remove that landscaping so the wall will be continuous. So it'll be in alignment with the new carports, which are much nicer than the existing ones. Yeah, they have the raised landscape beds there, as you can see in the pictures here. And on top, behind that they have a fence because there was no, because of the raised grade, they didn't have any, they didn't run the wall continuously along there. So now they're going to remove all that, pave that and put that wall in to fill in the gaps. Infill the wall, they're not replacing it, they're just going to infill the gaps. Correct, they're just going to infill the areas where the wall is missing now. Okay. See the applicant here so we can hear from the applicant as well. She's just excited. So excited for our facelift here. We're excited to get rid of those ugly carports. I know, I am too. Everybody's excited here. And we need roads, oh my goodness. Hello, I'm Amy. I am the president of Mulberry Square Association. And I also am a general contractor too.

  127. placement of the drive and the new carports compliant with the zoning board approval and with all the township ordinances and requirements. Okay, excellent. So the, just, I want to clarify that there's gaps in the walls now, the existing masonry wall. Yes. They're going to remove that landscaping so the wall will be continuous. So it'll be in alignment with the new carports, which are much nicer than the existing ones. Yeah, they have the raised landscape beds there, as you can see in the pictures here. And on top, behind that they have a fence because there was no, because of the raised grade, they didn't have any, they didn't run the wall continuously along there. So now they're going to remove all that, pave that and put that wall in to fill in the gaps. Infill the wall, they're not replacing it, they're just going to infill the gaps. Correct, they're just going to infill the areas where the wall is missing now. Okay. See the applicant here so we can hear from the applicant as well. She's just excited. So excited for our facelift here. We're excited to get rid of those ugly carports. I know, I am too. Everybody's excited here. And we need roads, oh my goodness. Hello, I'm Amy. I am the president of Mulberry Square Association. And I also am a general contractor too. So I'm familiar with all this fun stuff. The underground system is totally something I don't know about, a lot about. I've learned a lot about in this whole, the whole thing. But yeah. It's hard to doida. So if you guys have any questions, please let me know. I'm here to answer everything. No, it looks great and certainly an improvement. I'm glad to see also enhancing the landscaping the way that you're doing that. It will certainly, the entire site will be more user-friendly and more attractive. Oh, it's going to be beautiful once we're done. We're incorporating a lot of new lighting, new, it's going to be beautiful. Yeah. So is there anything that you want to add or Chris did such a great job? I think you did such an amazing job. Good job. Good at you. Is there actually lighting in the carports? There is. There's lighting in the carports and there's lighting on the exterior. If there's lighting on them currently, we're going to replace it with LEDs. Or not LEDs. Repair and replace. It's going to be a repair and replace of lighting where it's existing located. Yeah. But all the lights outside the buildings are getting replaced. So is there, does this have to go to the board or just? It's a site plan. So they're going to go to the ZBA for their carports and for their existing non-conforming parking spaces

  128. And I also am a general contractor too. So I'm familiar with all this fun stuff. The underground system is totally something I don't know about, a lot about. I've learned a lot about in this whole, the whole thing. But yeah. It's hard to doida. So if you guys have any questions, please let me know. I'm here to answer everything. No, it looks great and certainly an improvement. I'm glad to see also enhancing the landscaping the way that you're doing that. It will certainly, the entire site will be more user-friendly and more attractive. Oh, it's going to be beautiful once we're done. We're incorporating a lot of new lighting, new, it's going to be beautiful. Yeah. So is there anything that you want to add or Chris did such a great job? I think you did such an amazing job. Good job. Good at you. Is there actually lighting in the carports? There is. There's lighting in the carports and there's lighting on the exterior. If there's lighting on them currently, we're going to replace it with LEDs. Or not LEDs. Repair and replace. It's going to be a repair and replace of lighting where it's existing located. Yeah. But all the lights outside the buildings are getting replaced. So is there, does this have to go to the board or just? It's a site plan. So they're going to go to the ZBA for their carports and for their existing non-conforming parking spaces and then township board because it's a site plan. So we have a public hearing for this? Yep. Okay. Unless you guys just want to approve everything now. So you don't have a hearing. After the public hearing, we can consider it. All right, let's do it. So if there's nothing to add, we'll open it up to the public to see if there's any comments from the public on this matter. Thank you. All right. There's so many people here. I don't know. Step up to it. if you'd like to step up and let us know your name and address and and make your comments of course um so my name is dr olga gagnan of 2471 mulberry square and we believe that there's still significant unanswered questions surrounding the proposed mulberry square road project not about whether our roads need improvement but whether this 40 000 per home plan is necessary justified transparent and safe for 80 families this is not a minor expense yet the proposed 40 000 assessment has never been formally communicated to homeowners it was only verbally presented in a design review board recording that a resident happened to discover for a 175 000 condo that assessment represents roughly 23 of the home's value despite the size of this obligation residents

  129. and for their existing non-conforming parking spaces and then township board because it's a site plan. So we have a public hearing for this? Yep. Okay. Unless you guys just want to approve everything now. So you don't have a hearing. After the public hearing, we can consider it. All right, let's do it. So if there's nothing to add, we'll open it up to the public to see if there's any comments from the public on this matter. Thank you. All right. There's so many people here. I don't know. Step up to it. if you'd like to step up and let us know your name and address and and make your comments of course um so my name is dr olga gagnan of 2471 mulberry square and we believe that there's still significant unanswered questions surrounding the proposed mulberry square road project not about whether our roads need improvement but whether this 40 000 per home plan is necessary justified transparent and safe for 80 families this is not a minor expense yet the proposed 40 000 assessment has never been formally communicated to homeowners it was only verbally presented in a design review board recording that a resident happened to discover for a 175 000 condo that assessment represents roughly 23 of the home's value despite the size of this obligation residents have struggled to get basic information questions have repeatedly been deferred to an annual meeting that has not occurred or even been announced that it was scheduled while published board minutes have contained surprisingly little discussion of a project supposedly years in the making that lack of transparency is deeply disheartening especially as we watch our neighborhood change from 1989 through 2022 mulberry square averaged just one sailor listing attempt per year since 2022 more than a quarter of our entire community has been listed or sold for the last two years that represents a nearly nine percent annual turnover rate roughly seven times our historical rate during a period when national homeowner turnover was only about three percent a 30-year low we cannot say why every family moved but this timing and magnitude of this change deserves attention in coordination with the road project starting in 2022. we also believe that the cost deserves scrutiny we recognize that the roads need improvement but that there may be less expensive ways to accomplish what is actually required we ask the township to have the hoa clearly document what work is required versus discretionary how the 40 000 figure was calculated and what alternatives were considered and how this project compares to similar communities we also ask the township to confirm that all required hoa notices votes and approvals have

  130. assessment represents roughly 23 of the home's value despite the size of this obligation residents have struggled to get basic information questions have repeatedly been deferred to an annual meeting that has not occurred or even been announced that it was scheduled while published board minutes have contained surprisingly little discussion of a project supposedly years in the making that lack of transparency is deeply disheartening especially as we watch our neighborhood change from 1989 through 2022 mulberry square averaged just one sailor listing attempt per year since 2022 more than a quarter of our entire community has been listed or sold for the last two years that represents a nearly nine percent annual turnover rate roughly seven times our historical rate during a period when national homeowner turnover was only about three percent a 30-year low we cannot say why every family moved but this timing and magnitude of this change deserves attention in coordination with the road project starting in 2022. we also believe that the cost deserves scrutiny we recognize that the roads need improvement but that there may be less expensive ways to accomplish what is actually required we ask the township to have the hoa clearly document what work is required versus discretionary how the 40 000 figure was calculated and what alternatives were considered and how this project compares to similar communities we also ask the township to confirm that all required hoa notices votes and approvals have properly been followed then there's the question of what happens during construction the swim club has stated that our parking access could be removed at its discretion yet there is no backup parking plan construction would effectively be limited to the fall because the swim club does not allow parking during the spring and summer for its own residents while michigan winters limit road work school buses may have to make the difficult u-turn on our busy square lake road turn off i-75 where cards are going 70 miles an hour or faster which is very hard for a school bus to do and children and elderly residents may have to navigate temporary uneven walkways through an active construction zone simply to get home these are not inconveniences they're foreseeable risks involving children seniors school transportation emergency access and residents basic ability to safely reach their homes before construction begins there needs to be a concrete enforceable plan for these issues we're not asking the township to deny the all of the road project we're asking to make sure that progress is done right if these roads need to be rebuilt let's rebuild them But before 80 families are asked to pay $40,000 each, we deserve to know exactly what we are paying for, whether there's a better way to accomplish it, and whether the proper process has been followed, and whether our families can remain safe while it happens. Thank you. Thank you.

  131. we also ask the township to confirm that all required hoa notices votes and approvals have properly been followed then there's the question of what happens during construction the swim club has stated that our parking access could be removed at its discretion yet there is no backup parking plan construction would effectively be limited to the fall because the swim club does not allow parking during the spring and summer for its own residents while michigan winters limit road work school buses may have to make the difficult u-turn on our busy square lake road turn off i-75 where cards are going 70 miles an hour or faster which is very hard for a school bus to do and children and elderly residents may have to navigate temporary uneven walkways through an active construction zone simply to get home these are not inconveniences they're foreseeable risks involving children seniors school transportation emergency access and residents basic ability to safely reach their homes before construction begins there needs to be a concrete enforceable plan for these issues we're not asking the township to deny the all of the road project we're asking to make sure that progress is done right if these roads need to be rebuilt let's rebuild them But before 80 families are asked to pay $40,000 each, we deserve to know exactly what we are paying for, whether there's a better way to accomplish it, and whether the proper process has been followed, and whether our families can remain safe while it happens. Thank you. Thank you. Three minutes exactly. May I? I wasn't prepared for this, but just in rebuttal. My name is Dan Stevens. I'm on the board with Amy and some of the other board members. The ROE project has been in this process for 10 years, and everyone that's been in the complex for that length of time or within the last five, six, eight years, they've all been aware that this project is going forward. And every annual meeting, and this young lady was at the last annual meeting, we did Amy, the president. I'm the vice president. We did present to the community a list of expenses. It wasn't the exact amount, but it was a rough idea of what this would cost. It was nothing even close to $40,000 a unit. It is going to be anywhere from $20,000 to $25,000 per unit. So I don't know where the $40,000 has come from, but I don't have any idea. We do have our annual meeting coming up at the beginning of September. We finally have gotten everything we got.

  132. Three minutes exactly. May I? I wasn't prepared for this, but just in rebuttal. My name is Dan Stevens. I'm on the board with Amy and some of the other board members. The ROE project has been in this process for 10 years, and everyone that's been in the complex for that length of time or within the last five, six, eight years, they've all been aware that this project is going forward. And every annual meeting, and this young lady was at the last annual meeting, we did Amy, the president. I'm the vice president. We did present to the community a list of expenses. It wasn't the exact amount, but it was a rough idea of what this would cost. It was nothing even close to $40,000 a unit. It is going to be anywhere from $20,000 to $25,000 per unit. So I don't know where the $40,000 has come from, but I don't have any idea. We do have our annual meeting coming up at the beginning of September. We finally have gotten everything we got. all the proposals together all the contracts together which in me and andre have been working diligently on and so i just wanted to let everyone know it's not forty thousand dollars and we have gone through hoops after hoops after hoops and proposal after proposal and followed the guidelines that we have to follow with the township and the community to make sure that we're doing everything correct so thank you anybody else have any public comment to make chris gagan six five two nine cathedral drive i'm speaking tonight on behalf of family members who reside in mulberry square during the design review board meeting disclosure of the estimated forty thousand dollar assessment per unit caused one trustee to audibly whistle in surprise with average mulberry home value is around 175 000 that represents nearly 23 percent of the value of an average home to put that in perspective bloomfield village recently debated road special assessment districts estimated at roughly forty thousand to sixty thousand per home yet those homes averaged one to one and a half million in value applying the same proportional burden as mulberry square to those homes would have equated to an assessment of roughly three hundred

  133. all the proposals together all the contracts together which in me and andre have been working diligently on and so i just wanted to let everyone know it's not forty thousand dollars and we have gone through hoops after hoops after hoops and proposal after proposal and followed the guidelines that we have to follow with the township and the community to make sure that we're doing everything correct so thank you anybody else have any public comment to make chris gagan six five two nine cathedral drive i'm speaking tonight on behalf of family members who reside in mulberry square during the design review board meeting disclosure of the estimated forty thousand dollar assessment per unit caused one trustee to audibly whistle in surprise with average mulberry home value is around 175 000 that represents nearly 23 percent of the value of an average home to put that in perspective bloomfield village recently debated road special assessment districts estimated at roughly forty thousand to sixty thousand per home yet those homes averaged one to one and a half million in value applying the same proportional burden as mulberry square to those homes would have equated to an assessment of roughly three hundred thousand dollars per home those projects barely passed and generated significant public debate despite representing a much smaller percentage of homeowner's equity the numbers become even more striking when comparable by project size. Mulberry Square has roughly 80 condominiums and just 0.4 miles of roadway resulting in an estimated cost of about $1,500 per linear foot. By comparison, three recent Bloomfield Township road SAD projects, 426, 430, and 431, covered roughly two and a half to three miles of roadway at approximately $200 to $580 per linear foot. While I recognize these are not identical projects and each has unique engineering requirements, a cost that appears three to eight times higher than recent Township roadway projects deserves careful scrutiny to ensure the proposed scope is necessary and the costs are justified. That concern is heightened by questions surrounding the HOA's bid process. I would ask the applicant to clarify if there are any known employment relationships that inherently present the risk for conflicts of interest between members of the association and current or prospective vendors. Residents reasonably want assurance that any potential conflicts were fully disclosed, appropriate recusals occurred and were documented

  134. burden as mulberry square to those homes would have equated to an assessment of roughly three hundred thousand dollars per home those projects barely passed and generated significant public debate despite representing a much smaller percentage of homeowner's equity the numbers become even more striking when comparable by project size. Mulberry Square has roughly 80 condominiums and just 0.4 miles of roadway resulting in an estimated cost of about $1,500 per linear foot. By comparison, three recent Bloomfield Township road SAD projects, 426, 430, and 431, covered roughly two and a half to three miles of roadway at approximately $200 to $580 per linear foot. While I recognize these are not identical projects and each has unique engineering requirements, a cost that appears three to eight times higher than recent Township roadway projects deserves careful scrutiny to ensure the proposed scope is necessary and the costs are justified. That concern is heightened by questions surrounding the HOA's bid process. I would ask the applicant to clarify if there are any known employment relationships that inherently present the risk for conflicts of interest between members of the association and current or prospective vendors. Residents reasonably want assurance that any potential conflicts were fully disclosed, appropriate recusals occurred and were documented consistently, and the bidding process was transparent and competitive. All of these concerns have been amplified by at least one prior community project that exceeded original cost estimates resulting in additional special assessments while work remains unfinished. I recognize that this commission is not responsible for overseeing HOA governance or financing decisions. However, when a proposed site plan carries financial consequences approaching one quarter of the value of an average home, I believe that that extraordinary burden warrants extraordinary scrutiny. The staff report notes that public health, safety, and welfare should be protected. Therefore, the economic welfare and housing stability of existing residents are also relevant considerations when the commission is evaluating a project of this magnitude. We trust the commission will exercise appropriate due diligence before recommending a project with such significant financial consequences for dozens of families. Thank you for your time and consideration. Thank you. Anyone else or should, okay. If we could possibly direct the comments to the actual site plan because some of these matters that have to do with the governance of the homeowner associations are really not relevant.

  135. any potential conflicts were fully disclosed, appropriate recusals occurred and were documented consistently, and the bidding process was transparent and competitive. All of these concerns have been amplified by at least one prior community project that exceeded original cost estimates resulting in additional special assessments while work remains unfinished. I recognize that this commission is not responsible for overseeing HOA governance or financing decisions. However, when a proposed site plan carries financial consequences approaching one quarter of the value of an average home, I believe that that extraordinary burden warrants extraordinary scrutiny. The staff report notes that public health, safety, and welfare should be protected. Therefore, the economic welfare and housing stability of existing residents are also relevant considerations when the commission is evaluating a project of this magnitude. We trust the commission will exercise appropriate due diligence before recommending a project with such significant financial consequences for dozens of families. Thank you for your time and consideration. Thank you. Anyone else or should, okay. If we could possibly direct the comments to the actual site plan because some of these matters that have to do with the governance of the homeowner associations are really not relevant. Hopefully this does. Name. Maureen Sylvie, 2471 Mulberry. Number 12. Thank you. I'm on the board. My main issue is that half of this cost is because the township is requiring this 100-year storm, giant water retention. Unfortunately, it's not the township. It's not us. It's Oakland County Drain Commission. That's Oakland County Drain Commission to bring things up to current standard. We face it all the time ourselves as a contractor. John faces it. And I just want, I mean, that's the hardest part is it's half, at least half of what. Thank you very much, John. Thank you. Two million out of, you know, I know we're not supposed to talk money, but it is a huge part of this small community's financial burden on this, on just trying to get new roads and carports for something. So perhaps, I mean, is there any. We're looking at the site plan, so perhaps maybe members could go petition the Oakland County Road to the Water Department and say, look, this is unfair or whatever, but we just have to look at, is this improvement fit within our ordinance?

  136. If we could possibly direct the comments to the actual site plan because some of these matters that have to do with the governance of the homeowner associations are really not relevant. Hopefully this does. Name. Maureen Sylvie, 2471 Mulberry. Number 12. Thank you. I'm on the board. My main issue is that half of this cost is because the township is requiring this 100-year storm, giant water retention. Unfortunately, it's not the township. It's not us. It's Oakland County Drain Commission. That's Oakland County Drain Commission to bring things up to current standard. We face it all the time ourselves as a contractor. John faces it. And I just want, I mean, that's the hardest part is it's half, at least half of what. Thank you very much, John. Thank you. Two million out of, you know, I know we're not supposed to talk money, but it is a huge part of this small community's financial burden on this, on just trying to get new roads and carports for something. So perhaps, I mean, is there any. We're looking at the site plan, so perhaps maybe members could go petition the Oakland County Road to the Water Department and say, look, this is unfair or whatever, but we just have to look at, is this improvement fit within our ordinance? It does, but it requires a variance because of some pre-existing conditions, so when there's pre-existing conditions that don't, that are non-conforming, you know, we have to revisit the zoning. Our recommendation will, and again, it is a recommendation, that's all it's going to be, but it will be conditioned upon the ZBA approval. Right. But unfortunately, we suffer the same issues with every development, even when they're existing. It used to be where, if it was existing, they might give you a partial waiver, but now they want it everywhere. Yeah, you can't, yeah, it's like plea, you know, you just want to plead. So we're just almost under the requirement as far as the property. Okay, so we're going to close the public hearing, and I'm going to see, I'm going to ask the members, my co-members, if we have any comments or questions. I thought the presentation meets our criteria as far as from the homeowners association and that's what's before us, not what the cost, supposed cost overruns are, not anything about the financials.

  137. We're looking at the site plan, so perhaps maybe members could go petition the Oakland County Road to the Water Department and say, look, this is unfair or whatever, but we just have to look at, is this improvement fit within our ordinance? It does, but it requires a variance because of some pre-existing conditions, so when there's pre-existing conditions that don't, that are non-conforming, you know, we have to revisit the zoning. Our recommendation will, and again, it is a recommendation, that's all it's going to be, but it will be conditioned upon the ZBA approval. Right. But unfortunately, we suffer the same issues with every development, even when they're existing. It used to be where, if it was existing, they might give you a partial waiver, but now they want it everywhere. Yeah, you can't, yeah, it's like plea, you know, you just want to plead. So we're just almost under the requirement as far as the property. Okay, so we're going to close the public hearing, and I'm going to see, I'm going to ask the members, my co-members, if we have any comments or questions. I thought the presentation meets our criteria as far as from the homeowners association and that's what's before us, not what the cost, supposed cost overruns are, not anything about the financials. That's not our jurisdiction and that's not what we're here for. Any issues with the homeowners associations between the homeowners and the homeowners association? The only thing before us has to do with the carports and the landscaping and if we approve it, it's conditional to the ZBA. Anything else I think is irrelevant. Any comments? I agree. I mean, I did hear one comment that there has to be some kind of a plan for parking when the, you know, to either do it in phases or whatever. So if there's a motion, maybe we could include that in the motion because you can't just tear up all the parking and have 80 people have to park in the street or create an unsafe condition. So if you haven't created a plan yet. We're working with the tennis court. Okay, so we'll just, we may, whoever makes the motion may ask for that as a condition. Okay, that's all. Just a clarification. Uh, you said there's no new.

  138. I thought the presentation meets our criteria as far as from the homeowners association and that's what's before us, not what the cost, supposed cost overruns are, not anything about the financials. That's not our jurisdiction and that's not what we're here for. Any issues with the homeowners associations between the homeowners and the homeowners association? The only thing before us has to do with the carports and the landscaping and if we approve it, it's conditional to the ZBA. Anything else I think is irrelevant. Any comments? I agree. I mean, I did hear one comment that there has to be some kind of a plan for parking when the, you know, to either do it in phases or whatever. So if there's a motion, maybe we could include that in the motion because you can't just tear up all the parking and have 80 people have to park in the street or create an unsafe condition. So if you haven't created a plan yet. We're working with the tennis court. Okay, so we'll just, we may, whoever makes the motion may ask for that as a condition. Okay, that's all. Just a clarification. Uh, you said there's no new. they're just replacing the existing lighting. Is that right? Correct. That is correct. How many seasons is this supposed to take place over? One season? Okay, so one season. I bet you got a month on underground. I think they were hoping to have if you got to prove it, you'd be able to try to get asphalt at least base asphalt. It's getting pretty late. Carports can go all winter long. Getting the pipe is very difficult right now. Pipe's not a problem. I got the stuff. It's a big system. You got pipe. Okay, I'm ready to make a motion unless there's further discussion. Ready. Okay. Make a motion that we approve the carport proposal, the landscaping plan. What was presented to us subject to it being done in a phase one and a phase two and also subject to review by the Zoning Board of Appeals and approval of any variance

  139. they're just replacing the existing lighting. Is that right? Correct. That is correct. How many seasons is this supposed to take place over? One season? Okay, so one season. I bet you got a month on underground. I think they were hoping to have if you got to prove it, you'd be able to try to get asphalt at least base asphalt. It's getting pretty late. Carports can go all winter long. Getting the pipe is very difficult right now. Pipe's not a problem. I got the stuff. It's a big system. You got pipe. Okay, I'm ready to make a motion unless there's further discussion. Ready. Okay. Make a motion that we approve the carport proposal, the landscaping plan. What was presented to us subject to it being done in a phase one and a phase two and also subject to review by the Zoning Board of Appeals and approval of any variance or parking issues. I got the vote. We've got to vote. All in favor. All in favor. motion passes thank you very much we have some general business to discuss in the next item discussion pickleball discussion Griffin's gonna do that yeah I mean it's getting pretty late so I if you guys want to hear it yes you worked on it all right we did work on it come on it's your last week we want to hear it it'll be a thrilling pickleball presentation no you got a voice for radio really very good boy and you handled things really well with the homeowners acts yeah very I was gonna say the same thing whoever came up with

  140. and approval of any variance or parking issues. I got the vote. We've got to vote. All in favor. All in favor. motion passes thank you very much we have some general business to discuss in the next item discussion pickleball discussion Griffin's gonna do that yeah I mean it's getting pretty late so I if you guys want to hear it yes you worked on it all right we did work on it come on it's your last week we want to hear it it'll be a thrilling pickleball presentation no you got a voice for radio really very good boy and you handled things really well with the homeowners acts yeah very I was gonna say the same thing whoever came up with this idea about collecting comments is an excellent idea because it reinforces that they're being heard very good job I actually think it was mr. salts started that it would be and we started it in the June planning Commission meeting I think we all remember remember that one but you ask the questions really well yeah thank you the goal is ultimately to be an operating body for the residents and the developer. So I think it was great. We'll wait until you see his presentation. Oh, it's real fantastic. I've heard I've got a face radio. Just to get information. So as the board is probably aware, there's a moratorium that's been placed on pickleball. And what I had Griffin do as our intern is did some research kind of nationally in terms of sort of what's happening, because as you will find out, obviously Bloomfield Township is not the only community that's wrestling with us. So he did a great presentation. And the purpose of tonight is just to take the information. We are gonna be working on presenting this

  141. really well with the homeowners acts yeah very I was gonna say the same thing whoever came up with this idea about collecting comments is an excellent idea because it reinforces that they're being heard very good job I actually think it was mr. salts started that it would be and we started it in the June planning Commission meeting I think we all remember remember that one but you ask the questions really well yeah thank you the goal is ultimately to be an operating body for the residents and the developer. So I think it was great. We'll wait until you see his presentation. Oh, it's real fantastic. I've heard I've got a face radio. Just to get information. So as the board is probably aware, there's a moratorium that's been placed on pickleball. And what I had Griffin do as our intern is did some research kind of nationally in terms of sort of what's happening, because as you will find out, obviously Bloomfield Township is not the only community that's wrestling with us. So he did a great presentation. And the purpose of tonight is just to take the information. We are gonna be working on presenting this to the various boards and getting feedback as we're looking to think about an ordinance amendment or creating an ordinance that works within Bloomfield Township. Currently, all pickleball courts need to go to the Zoning Board of Appeals. The Zoning Board has seen an increase as well as, there's also been an increase in concern in terms of the sound, in terms of the impervious surface and things like that. So Griffin did some research and he has a presentation to kind of share what's happening across the country and maybe thinking about some things that maybe we want to consider within our own township. If I could just say one thing, I know there's a moratorium on pickleball. This mission is going to set up a little bit more than I've come to go. applications, but that does not impact the ones that have already been presented or are in process. That is correct. We stopped accepting new applications for Pickleball after the moratorium. So we have a stop. And part of a, anytime you have a moratorium on an activity within the township, you should actively be demonstrating that you're working towards a resolution. We can't just keep continuing and perpetuating a moratorium. So part of the moratorium is to take time to step back, do your research, get input, and

  142. We are gonna be working on presenting this to the various boards and getting feedback as we're looking to think about an ordinance amendment or creating an ordinance that works within Bloomfield Township. Currently, all pickleball courts need to go to the Zoning Board of Appeals. The Zoning Board has seen an increase as well as, there's also been an increase in concern in terms of the sound, in terms of the impervious surface and things like that. So Griffin did some research and he has a presentation to kind of share what's happening across the country and maybe thinking about some things that maybe we want to consider within our own township. If I could just say one thing, I know there's a moratorium on pickleball. This mission is going to set up a little bit more than I've come to go. applications, but that does not impact the ones that have already been presented or are in process. That is correct. We stopped accepting new applications for Pickleball after the moratorium. So we have a stop. And part of a, anytime you have a moratorium on an activity within the township, you should actively be demonstrating that you're working towards a resolution. We can't just keep continuing and perpetuating a moratorium. So part of the moratorium is to take time to step back, do your research, get input, and start thinking about drafting an ordinance. So this is kind of the first step. Thank you. So could we enjoy some baked goods that are in the kitchen while you're making the presentation? Go on ahead. I brought some for the members to try. You still get to take one home. Okay, I guess so. Are you going to go get them? I want one now. You can just walk in there and grab one and offset them. Would you like to have a thrilling night of Pickleball? Presenting. I've got to gauge how this mic works. I've been kind of really soft playing it all day. Like, oh, like really, because I'm in a marching band. I'm a really loud person. So I've got to be careful. I don't want to peek the mic or anything. But it takes getting used to. It's an hour presentation, just so you guys know. Is this an hour? It says it's two hours. You have the time, Lieutenant? It is their own. They're eating. They're eating. Yeah. i'll i'll do my best to get through some of the more text heavy sections very quickly so they can hear you well we're here well yeah if you want if you if you want me to begin i'm more happy to

  143. So part of the moratorium is to take time to step back, do your research, get input, and start thinking about drafting an ordinance. So this is kind of the first step. Thank you. So could we enjoy some baked goods that are in the kitchen while you're making the presentation? Go on ahead. I brought some for the members to try. You still get to take one home. Okay, I guess so. Are you going to go get them? I want one now. You can just walk in there and grab one and offset them. Would you like to have a thrilling night of Pickleball? Presenting. I've got to gauge how this mic works. I've been kind of really soft playing it all day. Like, oh, like really, because I'm in a marching band. I'm a really loud person. So I've got to be careful. I don't want to peek the mic or anything. But it takes getting used to. It's an hour presentation, just so you guys know. Is this an hour? It says it's two hours. You have the time, Lieutenant? It is their own. They're eating. They're eating. Yeah. i'll i'll do my best to get through some of the more text heavy sections very quickly so they can hear you well we're here well yeah if you want if you if you want me to begin i'm more happy to all right well we'll get started then can you imagine patty no all right yeah i think um andrew kind of prefaced it pretty well um currently with the moratorium in the township we're looking for solutions basically elsewhere what are other people doing what's going on and maybe a little education about pickleball itself since it's kind of a weird i don't want to say fad but honestly it's kind of like a fad it seems to come and go and i think there's some greatly needed context so i think the most important thing that i think everyone's going to hear a complaint about when you talk about pickleball is the sound um the popping sound which we'll get to in a bit sound aspects so according to bob unit take a retired engineer and carnegie mellon university professor and the founder of pickleball sound mitigation llc when the ball and paddle connect the sound can be heard at 70 decibels 100 feet away from the court for reference when you're playing tennis that's about 40 decibels so there is a a distinct difference when struck a pickleball gives off a pitch frequency of

  144. all right well we'll get started then can you imagine patty no all right yeah i think um andrew kind of prefaced it pretty well um currently with the moratorium in the township we're looking for solutions basically elsewhere what are other people doing what's going on and maybe a little education about pickleball itself since it's kind of a weird i don't want to say fad but honestly it's kind of like a fad it seems to come and go and i think there's some greatly needed context so i think the most important thing that i think everyone's going to hear a complaint about when you talk about pickleball is the sound um the popping sound which we'll get to in a bit sound aspects so according to bob unit take a retired engineer and carnegie mellon university professor and the founder of pickleball sound mitigation llc when the ball and paddle connect the sound can be heard at 70 decibels 100 feet away from the court for reference when you're playing tennis that's about 40 decibels so there is a a distinct difference when struck a pickleball gives off a pitch frequency of 1.2 thousand Hertz which is roughly the same frequency as a garbage truck backing up that that beeping now it's not the same sound but in terms of the frequency when you measure those sound waves it's the same frequency as that garbage truck backing up so the build of a shrill with 70 decibels as a sound comparison imagine when you're late for work at 7 in the morning on telegraph and you're kind of pushing it a little bit at 60 inside of your car that sound you have the radio off that's kind of the sound level a comparison you know maybe you need to turn the radio a little louder when you're driving a little faster on i-75 or anywhere like that that's kind of the sound comparison now a disclaimer with this one I understand that a new sound study has been done so there this is a little old but I still think it's valuable to kind of understand a context within Bloomfield Township that sound studies are being used for pickleball so I would say don't follow this religiously because there are a few numbers that are old considering that I think Birmingham Country Club has requested a new sound study this was based on the sound study back in around June so the numbers this numbers still speak so according to the

  145. 1.2 thousand Hertz which is roughly the same frequency as a garbage truck backing up that that beeping now it's not the same sound but in terms of the frequency when you measure those sound waves it's the same frequency as that garbage truck backing up so the build of a shrill with 70 decibels as a sound comparison imagine when you're late for work at 7 in the morning on telegraph and you're kind of pushing it a little bit at 60 inside of your car that sound you have the radio off that's kind of the sound level a comparison you know maybe you need to turn the radio a little louder when you're driving a little faster on i-75 or anywhere like that that's kind of the sound comparison now a disclaimer with this one I understand that a new sound study has been done so there this is a little old but I still think it's valuable to kind of understand a context within Bloomfield Township that sound studies are being used for pickleball so I would say don't follow this religiously because there are a few numbers that are old considering that I think Birmingham Country Club has requested a new sound study this was based on the sound study back in around June so the numbers this numbers still speak so according to the sound study at BCC the ambient level just standing out on the golf course in that area not on the golf course probably around the tennis courts about 45 to 42 decibels ambient sitting outside the winds blowing whatever tennis ball impact approximately 165 feet away was 53 decibels that's what it was measured at so slightly louder than an ambient every day outside noise pickleball impact at 65 feet to simulate one of the nearest neighbors was at 63 decibels which is in line with the previous kind of noise comparison pickleball impact at 200 feet only fell off by around 10 decibels so in terms of that frequency that just carries it carries and I think that's where the issues are popping up is that you know you have a neighbor right here and they're hearing it pretty loud but the neighbor three houses down is still hearing it at a considerable level and I think that's why the number of complaints kind of rises when it comes to pickleball

  146. back in around June so the numbers this numbers still speak so according to the sound study at BCC the ambient level just standing out on the golf course in that area not on the golf course probably around the tennis courts about 45 to 42 decibels ambient sitting outside the winds blowing whatever tennis ball impact approximately 165 feet away was 53 decibels that's what it was measured at so slightly louder than an ambient every day outside noise pickleball impact at 65 feet to simulate one of the nearest neighbors was at 63 decibels which is in line with the previous kind of noise comparison pickleball impact at 200 feet only fell off by around 10 decibels so in terms of that frequency that just carries it carries and I think that's where the issues are popping up is that you know you have a neighbor right here and they're hearing it pretty loud but the neighbor three houses down is still hearing it at a considerable level and I think that's why the number of complaints kind of rises when it comes to pickleball studies done by neighbors the neighbors also submitted a sound study and they measured at certain points in their yard the decibels hitting around 70 so I give or take when you're near those pickleball courts that's around 60 to 70 decibels which again going back to that ambient sound in your car you're turning up the radio a little more maybe talking a little louder just because of the sound that's in there and it's not just us let's see if these I'm going to try to work with these links we're going to see how this goes I apologize for any obnoxious ads or anything that may pop up but we're gonna I'm gonna try to get this loaded up oh good I don't I can look at it before it starts so I'm just gonna wait for this ad to skip and then I'll I'm actually glad the presentation hides it okay I'm gonna do a little soundcheck here as well bear with me okay there is great okay sorry I wanted to like blow all our ears off when we turn it on all right I'm gonna exit the never been a big huge fan of PowerPoint I'll be honest all right I'm the slideshow there

  147. studies done by neighbors the neighbors also submitted a sound study and they measured at certain points in their yard the decibels hitting around 70 so I give or take when you're near those pickleball courts that's around 60 to 70 decibels which again going back to that ambient sound in your car you're turning up the radio a little more maybe talking a little louder just because of the sound that's in there and it's not just us let's see if these I'm going to try to work with these links we're going to see how this goes I apologize for any obnoxious ads or anything that may pop up but we're gonna I'm gonna try to get this loaded up oh good I don't I can look at it before it starts so I'm just gonna wait for this ad to skip and then I'll I'm actually glad the presentation hides it okay I'm gonna do a little soundcheck here as well bear with me okay there is great okay sorry I wanted to like blow all our ears off when we turn it on all right I'm gonna exit the never been a big huge fan of PowerPoint I'll be honest all right I'm the slideshow there go here all right here we go the mayor of Mission Woods has filed a lawsuit in Kansas he wants to stop the sound of pickleball matches near his home claiming that constant pop is a nuisance KCPD 570 River takes a closer look at the pace according to a petition filed in court the couple says they're normally quiet neighborhood changed when the country club converted tennis courts into pickleball courts less than 200 feet from their home they say they can hear pickleball being played inside and outside of their house Mission Woods mayor Daryl Franklin and his wife filed the petition asking the court for a temporary and permanent injunction to prevent the playing of pickleball at converted courts to prevent the building of new courts and prohibit the playing of pickleball within 600 feet of their bordering property line. The couple told the court pickleball play creates a much louder sound than tennis, noting pickleball is played with hard paddles and a hard plastic ball. Their petition said pickleball, quote, typically creates a sound in the range of 1,000 to 2,000 hertz, which is near the most sensitive frequency range of human hearing, end quote. An attorney representing the Mission Hills Country Club provided KCTV5 News a copy of a letter

  148. been a big huge fan of PowerPoint I'll be honest all right I'm the slideshow there go here all right here we go the mayor of Mission Woods has filed a lawsuit in Kansas he wants to stop the sound of pickleball matches near his home claiming that constant pop is a nuisance KCPD 570 River takes a closer look at the pace according to a petition filed in court the couple says they're normally quiet neighborhood changed when the country club converted tennis courts into pickleball courts less than 200 feet from their home they say they can hear pickleball being played inside and outside of their house Mission Woods mayor Daryl Franklin and his wife filed the petition asking the court for a temporary and permanent injunction to prevent the playing of pickleball at converted courts to prevent the building of new courts and prohibit the playing of pickleball within 600 feet of their bordering property line. The couple told the court pickleball play creates a much louder sound than tennis, noting pickleball is played with hard paddles and a hard plastic ball. Their petition said pickleball, quote, typically creates a sound in the range of 1,000 to 2,000 hertz, which is near the most sensitive frequency range of human hearing, end quote. An attorney representing the Mission Hills Country Club provided KCTV5 News a copy of a letter that was sent to the Mission Hills Country Club members. The letter informed members of the lawsuit. It also stated the club has had one of its two lower courts converted exclusively to pickleball courts beginning in 2017. The letter listed several efforts to lessen the impact of pickleball prior to the lawsuit being filed, including the installation of an acoustic barrier to block direct sound. limiting pickleball play to the hours of 8 a.m. to 9 p.m. and reinforcing club rules related to decorum near the converted courts. The couple's petition stated the persistent and annoying popping sound of pickleball is often accompanied by loud music, excessive drinking of alcohol, and a party atmosphere, which made it difficult to relax, concentrate, or sleep soundly, which could cause stress, fatigue, and anxiety. The petition also asks that the couple be awarded damages. KCTV5 News contact. Mayor Franklin to request an interview, but so far, we have not heard back. Reporting from Johnson County, Emily. So that's more of the kind of what people are really getting fired up about this. I mean, lawsuits already starting.

  149. An attorney representing the Mission Hills Country Club provided KCTV5 News a copy of a letter that was sent to the Mission Hills Country Club members. The letter informed members of the lawsuit. It also stated the club has had one of its two lower courts converted exclusively to pickleball courts beginning in 2017. The letter listed several efforts to lessen the impact of pickleball prior to the lawsuit being filed, including the installation of an acoustic barrier to block direct sound. limiting pickleball play to the hours of 8 a.m. to 9 p.m. and reinforcing club rules related to decorum near the converted courts. The couple's petition stated the persistent and annoying popping sound of pickleball is often accompanied by loud music, excessive drinking of alcohol, and a party atmosphere, which made it difficult to relax, concentrate, or sleep soundly, which could cause stress, fatigue, and anxiety. The petition also asks that the couple be awarded damages. KCTV5 News contact. Mayor Franklin to request an interview, but so far, we have not heard back. Reporting from Johnson County, Emily. So that's more of the kind of what people are really getting fired up about this. I mean, lawsuits already starting. The fact that it was the mayor was actually the most shocking part to me when I learned about this one. The mayor was going after it. And I know we all really want to hear the noise, so I think this next one has a great example of what pickleballs sound like. Noise complaints is usually the result of loud music, fireworks, ATVs, parties, you know, a bunch of stuff. But pickleball? It's nowhere on that list, you think. One Philly neighborhood. Here's our crystal call. The wildly popular recreational sport may be a victim of its own success. Some here in Chestnut Hill say pickleball has become a neighborhood nuisance. I wake up, I hear it. I walk down the steps, I hear it. Open the back door to let the dog out, you hear it. One of the hottest recreational sports in the country right now happens to be one of the loudest. Like a pop, pop, pop, and it feels like it's right in our house. Just ask the residents of the 8100 block of Ardley Street in Chestnut Hill. Their homes sit just feet away from the pickleball courts at the Water Tower Recreational Center run by the city. Since the pandemic, the courts have become a popular...

  150. I mean, lawsuits already starting. The fact that it was the mayor was actually the most shocking part to me when I learned about this one. The mayor was going after it. And I know we all really want to hear the noise, so I think this next one has a great example of what pickleballs sound like. Noise complaints is usually the result of loud music, fireworks, ATVs, parties, you know, a bunch of stuff. But pickleball? It's nowhere on that list, you think. One Philly neighborhood. Here's our crystal call. The wildly popular recreational sport may be a victim of its own success. Some here in Chestnut Hill say pickleball has become a neighborhood nuisance. I wake up, I hear it. I walk down the steps, I hear it. Open the back door to let the dog out, you hear it. One of the hottest recreational sports in the country right now happens to be one of the loudest. Like a pop, pop, pop, and it feels like it's right in our house. Just ask the residents of the 8100 block of Ardley Street in Chestnut Hill. Their homes sit just feet away from the pickleball courts at the Water Tower Recreational Center run by the city. Since the pandemic, the courts have become a popular... It appeals to a wide range of people. There are people playing with knee replacements, hip replacements. It's hard to deny the popularity of pickleball. Men, women, young and old, have taken up the game, but also players admit. It's hard. I get it. At the same time, that's what recreation is supposed to be for, so try to find somewhere in the middle of it. I think there's some validity to it. I mean, it is noisier than tennis, and I think the dialogue between the players and the residents is important. The noise issue was at the center of a packed public meeting, some residents demanding changes. Some suggested softer balls and paddles, and cutting the court's hours. Some just wanted to shut down altogether. You need to stop this immediately. If not, they're planning a lawsuit against the city for breaking its own noise ordinance. Eight, nine months a year, you can't open your windows. You ever try to live someplace where you can't open your windows with a racket? Less held down it is. One possible solution, more courts. The Parks and Rec Department tells us that more pickleball courts could be planned for a rec center in Mount Airy in the coming months.

  151. It appeals to a wide range of people. There are people playing with knee replacements, hip replacements. It's hard to deny the popularity of pickleball. Men, women, young and old, have taken up the game, but also players admit. It's hard. I get it. At the same time, that's what recreation is supposed to be for, so try to find somewhere in the middle of it. I think there's some validity to it. I mean, it is noisier than tennis, and I think the dialogue between the players and the residents is important. The noise issue was at the center of a packed public meeting, some residents demanding changes. Some suggested softer balls and paddles, and cutting the court's hours. Some just wanted to shut down altogether. You need to stop this immediately. If not, they're planning a lawsuit against the city for breaking its own noise ordinance. Eight, nine months a year, you can't open your windows. You ever try to live someplace where you can't open your windows with a racket? Less held down it is. One possible solution, more courts. The Parks and Rec Department tells us that more pickleball courts could be planned for a rec center in Mount Airy in the coming months. So there's, I think that was a good showcase of the noise there. We got one more video that'll help out with the noise, kind of, kind of preface it. I will say for that one, it's in a public park. We don't have those. But still, I mean, the- Proximity, I think, tells a story. Skip the third clip. Oh, we're skipping the third clip. Andrea's done. Good cue. Yeah, good job. Those were really good. Don't get me wrong. No, no, no, no. They were good. They were good. I won't even play this one either. We'll just keep going. We'll get to the good part here. Basically, there needs to be a solution and the opinions of the planning department. I think that any way to enforce noise, pickleball, it's going to become a nuisance, especially when you allow it to be built again. There's going to be complaints. I'm actually shocked that there haven't been more, considering I think Bloomfield is a very unique community that is sensitive to these things. Have they come up with different paddles and balls? Yeah. I'm about to get into it right now. So solution one that I found is foam paddles and balls. There's quieter play. They can be played on any surface in any condition. And there's lower risk of external damage, paddles flying, balls flying.

  152. So there's, I think that was a good showcase of the noise there. We got one more video that'll help out with the noise, kind of, kind of preface it. I will say for that one, it's in a public park. We don't have those. But still, I mean, the- Proximity, I think, tells a story. Skip the third clip. Oh, we're skipping the third clip. Andrea's done. Good cue. Yeah, good job. Those were really good. Don't get me wrong. No, no, no, no. They were good. They were good. I won't even play this one either. We'll just keep going. We'll get to the good part here. Basically, there needs to be a solution and the opinions of the planning department. I think that any way to enforce noise, pickleball, it's going to become a nuisance, especially when you allow it to be built again. There's going to be complaints. I'm actually shocked that there haven't been more, considering I think Bloomfield is a very unique community that is sensitive to these things. Have they come up with different paddles and balls? Yeah. I'm about to get into it right now. So solution one that I found is foam paddles and balls. There's quieter play. They can be played on any surface in any condition. And there's lower risk of external damage, paddles flying, balls flying. Who knows? But the con is, in my opinion, the material of the ball and the paddle substantially change the style of the game. So when you're coming to a board and you're saying, we're going to enforce how residents play this game in terms of quality and stuff like that, I think that would get a lot of pushback. And they're more expensive. And how do you enforce that? How do you go to someone's house or go to a country club and say, hey, you got the right paddles, you have the right this and that. So that's kind of where we measure it on that. But it changes the game. Like if you're going to play ping pong and you're not using a ping pong ball, you shouldn't even ping pong anymore. Why? It could be the same size, it's just quieter and the racket's quieter. No, it has different resistance. Oh, does it? Playing tennis with a foam ball. The balls are foam. Actually, a racket sports player. So I've played tennis with foam balls before, and it's just lame. It's just unenjoyable. It's a whole different ball. By the way, the enforcement's very easy. You ever run a country club? Well, we can talk about country clubs. First thing they stop is smoking. Yeah. That's real easy. Then you go up to someone's house and say, show me your pickleball paddles. I mean, none of these are impossible.

  153. And there's lower risk of external damage, paddles flying, balls flying. Who knows? But the con is, in my opinion, the material of the ball and the paddle substantially change the style of the game. So when you're coming to a board and you're saying, we're going to enforce how residents play this game in terms of quality and stuff like that, I think that would get a lot of pushback. And they're more expensive. And how do you enforce that? How do you go to someone's house or go to a country club and say, hey, you got the right paddles, you have the right this and that. So that's kind of where we measure it on that. But it changes the game. Like if you're going to play ping pong and you're not using a ping pong ball, you shouldn't even ping pong anymore. Why? It could be the same size, it's just quieter and the racket's quieter. No, it has different resistance. Oh, does it? Playing tennis with a foam ball. The balls are foam. Actually, a racket sports player. So I've played tennis with foam balls before, and it's just lame. It's just unenjoyable. It's a whole different ball. By the way, the enforcement's very easy. You ever run a country club? Well, we can talk about country clubs. First thing they stop is smoking. Yeah. That's real easy. Then you go up to someone's house and say, show me your pickleball paddles. I mean, none of these are impossible. I mean, these are all reasonable ideas. We're kind of just weighing both. Okay. All right, let's go do solution two. Sound blocking materials on fences. The pros to this is they reduce noise. It acts as screening. It is dependent on the material, though. And it shields quartz from wind. I think that actually increases the quality of play, and it helps with the quartz themselves. Cons, though, is that it doesn't reduce all noise. It's very expensive. And the noise control is dependent on the quality and how much you're willing to put into the material. We have two examples here. I'm sure you guys have seen these before. Acoustoblock pickleball tarp. Price estimate is about $100 per... 50 square feet it's kind of got more of like a rubbery vinyl kind of texture and then you see on the right the sound seal acoustic curtains about a hundred fifteen dollars per panel so every time we did that the township wouldn't the township wanted to be screened with evergreens anyway oh yeah yeah these are ideas that could all think we could formulate everything together these are ideas everything could be we could pile on multiple conditions I'm not writing the amendment tonight so we've got time to look at all these things it's kind of just a preliminary an introduction to what to consider hours of play there's

  154. I mean, none of these are impossible. I mean, these are all reasonable ideas. We're kind of just weighing both. Okay. All right, let's go do solution two. Sound blocking materials on fences. The pros to this is they reduce noise. It acts as screening. It is dependent on the material, though. And it shields quartz from wind. I think that actually increases the quality of play, and it helps with the quartz themselves. Cons, though, is that it doesn't reduce all noise. It's very expensive. And the noise control is dependent on the quality and how much you're willing to put into the material. We have two examples here. I'm sure you guys have seen these before. Acoustoblock pickleball tarp. Price estimate is about $100 per... 50 square feet it's kind of got more of like a rubbery vinyl kind of texture and then you see on the right the sound seal acoustic curtains about a hundred fifteen dollars per panel so every time we did that the township wouldn't the township wanted to be screened with evergreens anyway oh yeah yeah these are ideas that could all think we could formulate everything together these are ideas everything could be we could pile on multiple conditions I'm not writing the amendment tonight so we've got time to look at all these things it's kind of just a preliminary an introduction to what to consider hours of play there's another one this is a common solution that has already been used in CBA rulings for other sports courts I remember when I first started here in May we had a ice rink installed in a rear yard and the stipulation from the ZBA is that it could only be used during daylight hours a similar rule could be put in effect for pickleball courts like this for clubs or other pickleball facilities it actually helps them enforcing their scheduling it throws it back to them that they don't have any obligation for night play or anything like that I think would actually help country clubs cost nothing to tell you to stop playing pickleball after dark and I think it's easier enforcement as well I think you know in terms of if it's a noise issue someone can't you you can prove that someone was playing pickleball at night if you have video you have sound. It's pretty hard to hide you playing a loud sport at night if someone's recording you or there's a neighbor. The cons though is that there's no noise reduction. It's still loud. There's got to be more enforcement. I

  155. just a preliminary an introduction to what to consider hours of play there's another one this is a common solution that has already been used in CBA rulings for other sports courts I remember when I first started here in May we had a ice rink installed in a rear yard and the stipulation from the ZBA is that it could only be used during daylight hours a similar rule could be put in effect for pickleball courts like this for clubs or other pickleball facilities it actually helps them enforcing their scheduling it throws it back to them that they don't have any obligation for night play or anything like that I think would actually help country clubs cost nothing to tell you to stop playing pickleball after dark and I think it's easier enforcement as well I think you know in terms of if it's a noise issue someone can't you you can prove that someone was playing pickleball at night if you have video you have sound. It's pretty hard to hide you playing a loud sport at night if someone's recording you or there's a neighbor. The cons though is that there's no noise reduction. It's still loud. There's got to be more enforcement. I think there will be more of a weight put on clubs that have pickleball courts and it doesn't adhere to all the residents lives and schedules. I mean we have a lot of people who want to do a lot of different things in the township. They're not always available to relax during daylight hours. I mean look we're here right now. Is our moratorium currently just for residential or? Any pickleball. What about indoor? Well indoor is okay. It's a completely different thing because it doesn't have the same control. Do we have any complaints from ACE or you can't really hear anything at all? No, they're indoors. Which one is that? In Franklin, right where we're in the office building. Right across the street from all right so another one we got is a court orientation. Basically pointing the courts in a certain direction especially away from houses when you're in that building process can reduce noise. When you're hitting, let's say you got a house on the north end of a pickleball court, if you're playing east to west it there there is less sound. Now it's not like by some ridiculous unit it's gonna become silent but there is a noise reduction. By all means you are reducing noise by doing that. It doesn't it doesn't cost more if you're just changing the orientation. I'd like unless you have a very unique

  156. no noise reduction. It's still loud. There's got to be more enforcement. I think there will be more of a weight put on clubs that have pickleball courts and it doesn't adhere to all the residents lives and schedules. I mean we have a lot of people who want to do a lot of different things in the township. They're not always available to relax during daylight hours. I mean look we're here right now. Is our moratorium currently just for residential or? Any pickleball. What about indoor? Well indoor is okay. It's a completely different thing because it doesn't have the same control. Do we have any complaints from ACE or you can't really hear anything at all? No, they're indoors. Which one is that? In Franklin, right where we're in the office building. Right across the street from all right so another one we got is a court orientation. Basically pointing the courts in a certain direction especially away from houses when you're in that building process can reduce noise. When you're hitting, let's say you got a house on the north end of a pickleball court, if you're playing east to west it there there is less sound. Now it's not like by some ridiculous unit it's gonna become silent but there is a noise reduction. By all means you are reducing noise by doing that. It doesn't it doesn't cost more if you're just changing the orientation. I'd like unless you have a very unique property in which you have to have it oriented in a way did your study give you a decibel amount what the reduction is it like admittedly it did not so I'm not gonna I'm not writing this one to the court on this one so there's reduced quality if you if you're in mandating that courts have to be east-west in a sense away from houses then you know glare stuff like that reduces the quality play doesn't work for courts surrounded by homes if you're surrounded by properties it doesn't matter sounds gonna go everywhere anywhere you've anyway you place it it also creates a lot of grandfathered sports courts there'd be a lot of courts in the township that would be in that grandfathered status of historical non-compliance which I know we're trying to avoid finally we have pickle tile this is actually I think was it I enjoyed the refreshment memory on this was BCC that was getting the picket up yep reduces noise by 10 decibels and that I do know and went to their website they confirm that are you saying we required this somewhere it's high quality there are no character issues involved

  157. property in which you have to have it oriented in a way did your study give you a decibel amount what the reduction is it like admittedly it did not so I'm not gonna I'm not writing this one to the court on this one so there's reduced quality if you if you're in mandating that courts have to be east-west in a sense away from houses then you know glare stuff like that reduces the quality play doesn't work for courts surrounded by homes if you're surrounded by properties it doesn't matter sounds gonna go everywhere anywhere you've anyway you place it it also creates a lot of grandfathered sports courts there'd be a lot of courts in the township that would be in that grandfathered status of historical non-compliance which I know we're trying to avoid finally we have pickle tile this is actually I think was it I enjoyed the refreshment memory on this was BCC that was getting the picket up yep reduces noise by 10 decibels and that I do know and went to their website they confirm that are you saying we required this somewhere it's high quality there are no character issues involved with it it looks good it's durable it's low maintenance there's actually digital access another help for clubs in terms of scheduling helping them figure out all their things big one is this Expensive very very expensive and I mean for for country clubs. That's probably all right But if you're enforcing that on the average resident, it may get dicey The locking system is through a third party Installation is complex even if it is through one contractor often it is not And it's not a complete noise solution. It still needs assistance from evergreen screening Walls or other things and they even admit that on the website that this is not in a all-around Noise solution so and it's so expensive that I can't find a quote word anywhere I'd have to literally put in all my information and give like a site plan for them to like look at me So that's how expensive it is. It's so for shooting in the planning commission. We can't be an authorized distributor. Yeah Yeah, that's kind of that's kind of what the solutions are. It's not easy. It's not just one clear-cut. Let's just do this I don't expect like I know one's gonna make a decision like that, but

  158. required this somewhere it's high quality there are no character issues involved with it it looks good it's durable it's low maintenance there's actually digital access another help for clubs in terms of scheduling helping them figure out all their things big one is this Expensive very very expensive and I mean for for country clubs. That's probably all right But if you're enforcing that on the average resident, it may get dicey The locking system is through a third party Installation is complex even if it is through one contractor often it is not And it's not a complete noise solution. It still needs assistance from evergreen screening Walls or other things and they even admit that on the website that this is not in a all-around Noise solution so and it's so expensive that I can't find a quote word anywhere I'd have to literally put in all my information and give like a site plan for them to like look at me So that's how expensive it is. It's so for shooting in the planning commission. We can't be an authorized distributor. Yeah Yeah, that's kind of that's kind of what the solutions are. It's not easy. It's not just one clear-cut. Let's just do this I don't expect like I know one's gonna make a decision like that, but These are just kind of the things are bringing the light like what's out there We appreciate it But the only thing that I mean that I could see that makes sense especially for residentials Limiting the hours just that was number three was it. Yeah Yeah, yeah, I will do a very quick deep. We'll do a very quick dive I mean you might get a million last slide You said last thing last thing as in last solution we got some I'll go I'll go quick even though ordinance is really thrilling I'll go really click on this one basically I mean I need Andrew to help me out here just kind of speed read through this but then this one from Sagaponak New York a very affluent community their courts are only permitted in certain districts they also have setback requirements so setback 60 feet from the nearest property line and sunken in at least four feet that was a big one because now you're having land kind of be that sound mitigation that we thought that was actually a good idea the sunken idea yeah then we got in the discussion about water table and what you know with water yeah that's what we were at so that was gonna be the that's what we talked about yeah but that was

  159. I don't expect like I know one's gonna make a decision like that, but These are just kind of the things are bringing the light like what's out there We appreciate it But the only thing that I mean that I could see that makes sense especially for residentials Limiting the hours just that was number three was it. Yeah Yeah, yeah, I will do a very quick deep. We'll do a very quick dive I mean you might get a million last slide You said last thing last thing as in last solution we got some I'll go I'll go quick even though ordinance is really thrilling I'll go really click on this one basically I mean I need Andrew to help me out here just kind of speed read through this but then this one from Sagaponak New York a very affluent community their courts are only permitted in certain districts they also have setback requirements so setback 60 feet from the nearest property line and sunken in at least four feet that was a big one because now you're having land kind of be that sound mitigation that we thought that was actually a good idea the sunken idea yeah then we got in the discussion about water table and what you know with water yeah that's what we were at so that was gonna be the that's what we talked about yeah but that was interesting concept yeah yeah they also require attenuation walls sound walls so I like it's probably the strictest one in our little collection of ordinances here requires sinking it setting it back and putting a sound attenuation wall on there they actually require a wall they've talked about conversion as well I don't really think that's relevant so any requirements increased setbacks kind of what we talked about Winchester Connecticut this is more about public parks so I there were a few things I wanted to take in from here basically it's talking about public property and it enforces appropriate use which I know there are people who complain about what's going on on these courts, why are these, like, the swearing, that was the big thing in the BCC one, there were people complaining about, they were hearing foul language, horrible, this and that, and I mean, whether or not we choose to enforce that up to the, yeah, yeah, so, but just to keep it in mind, and it addresses noise in a certain way, enforces conversion as well, there was a line in there about tape and converting your tennis courts to pickleball.

  160. that's what we were at so that was gonna be the that's what we talked about yeah but that was interesting concept yeah yeah they also require attenuation walls sound walls so I like it's probably the strictest one in our little collection of ordinances here requires sinking it setting it back and putting a sound attenuation wall on there they actually require a wall they've talked about conversion as well I don't really think that's relevant so any requirements increased setbacks kind of what we talked about Winchester Connecticut this is more about public parks so I there were a few things I wanted to take in from here basically it's talking about public property and it enforces appropriate use which I know there are people who complain about what's going on on these courts, why are these, like, the swearing, that was the big thing in the BCC one, there were people complaining about, they were hearing foul language, horrible, this and that, and I mean, whether or not we choose to enforce that up to the, yeah, yeah, so, but just to keep it in mind, and it addresses noise in a certain way, enforces conversion as well, there was a line in there about tape and converting your tennis courts to pickleball. We had to talk about that with the Fox Hills, and recently there was a whole thing about taping over the tennis courts, making pickleball, whether or not that was allowed, so, this one's about Texas, it's a, it's a long one, we don't have to go into it, but, they kind of define. They do talk about impervious surface, so that's one. Yeah, they have a very good definition of impervious surface, that we thought, Chris being one of the building, yeah, yeah, the material. Having a limit in the area is a good thing, too. Oh, I think so, that's definitely a big push from the ZBA, is because they've been seeing the courts increase in size, so having a size requirement, or maximum size, is definitely going to be, would be incorporated. This is for applicants putting them in their backyard? Mm-hmm . Yeah, there's more. I don't think there's a ton on this page, so we'll just, I can tell by the looks on this, on your face. But we can share, actually, you know, This PowerPoint is on the app. Yeah, we'll share it. There's a lot of good videos. But it expands the sports court definition, includes pickleball, defines sports courts, the amount you can have. That's a unique one. Setbacks for given districts.

  161. We had to talk about that with the Fox Hills, and recently there was a whole thing about taping over the tennis courts, making pickleball, whether or not that was allowed, so, this one's about Texas, it's a, it's a long one, we don't have to go into it, but, they kind of define. They do talk about impervious surface, so that's one. Yeah, they have a very good definition of impervious surface, that we thought, Chris being one of the building, yeah, yeah, the material. Having a limit in the area is a good thing, too. Oh, I think so, that's definitely a big push from the ZBA, is because they've been seeing the courts increase in size, so having a size requirement, or maximum size, is definitely going to be, would be incorporated. This is for applicants putting them in their backyard? Mm-hmm . Yeah, there's more. I don't think there's a ton on this page, so we'll just, I can tell by the looks on this, on your face. But we can share, actually, you know, This PowerPoint is on the app. Yeah, we'll share it. There's a lot of good videos. But it expands the sports court definition, includes pickleball, defines sports courts, the amount you can have. That's a unique one. Setbacks for given districts. And that one, they have a unique way of calling out their residential districts. And it's not by a ton, but they actually have a slightly larger footage setback for a denser residential district, which I thought was unique. R1, R3. Which we're harder to do. Evergreen, height requirement, which we kind of already have. Color palette and aesthetics, appropriate use. And actually, it threw a requirement on the building department. So I think we often come with so much weight on the planning department for so many decisions. And then with them, they actually put one of those onto the building department. That's the easy department. Yeah. Why do you think Chris left the building department? Yeah. We'll get a break. This, finally, this is a little statistic report. I was, when I first started this, I was like, oh, I'm going to get a good narrative on this. It's, it's, it's, it's random. I don't know why, I guess pickleball died in 2024 for a bit, and then it came back to life in 25. And then you can look at our moratorium, knocked it down, which it's kind of unfortunate in the terms of data. If we didn't have that moratorium, it'd be cool to see, would we be doubling pickleball, where would it be going? But I also think it's good, because we're not letting... Okay. Thank you.

  162. And that one, they have a unique way of calling out their residential districts. And it's not by a ton, but they actually have a slightly larger footage setback for a denser residential district, which I thought was unique. R1, R3. Which we're harder to do. Evergreen, height requirement, which we kind of already have. Color palette and aesthetics, appropriate use. And actually, it threw a requirement on the building department. So I think we often come with so much weight on the planning department for so many decisions. And then with them, they actually put one of those onto the building department. That's the easy department. Yeah. Why do you think Chris left the building department? Yeah. We'll get a break. This, finally, this is a little statistic report. I was, when I first started this, I was like, oh, I'm going to get a good narrative on this. It's, it's, it's, it's random. I don't know why, I guess pickleball died in 2024 for a bit, and then it came back to life in 25. And then you can look at our moratorium, knocked it down, which it's kind of unfortunate in the terms of data. If we didn't have that moratorium, it'd be cool to see, would we be doubling pickleball, where would it be going? But I also think it's good, because we're not letting... Okay. Thank you. possible issue run on a control I think these are residential people make an application oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah well they want sports courts but no sports court has to include a couple includes so it's work but you know Birmingham's got a great example okay Southfield there's a public park of tennis courts that they do pickle and it has times you guys sign up and all that but they only allow the pickle during certain times which which is thank you thank you thank you yes you you you you you you