Planning Commission Tuesday, April 21, 2026 · 115 min

Bloomfield Township Planning Commission Meeting on April 20, 2026

Summary

The city council meeting discussed the Birmingham Country Club's proposed pickleball court expansion, addressing noise concerns and potential solutions, including sound mitigation measures and variances.

The city council discussed the proposed pickleball court expansion and its potential impact on nearby residents.
Residents expressed concerns about noise levels and proposed a moratorium on the activity.
The city council considered sound mitigation measures, including sound barriers and noise-reducing materials.
Variances were discussed for the proposed pickleball court expansion, including factors such as previous rulings and costs to neighbors.
The city council ultimately denied the proposed pickleball court expansion due to potential noise and traffic impacts on nearby homes.

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Transcript

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Thank you all for being here. Anybody who is here for the first time, let me just explain that the Bloomfield Township Planning Commission, it's a seven-member body. It's appointed by the Township Board of Trustees and we are, as per the Michigan Zoning Enabling Act, we're an advisory board. Whatever we decide here tonight, we'll go to the Bloomfield Township Board of Trustees for a final decision. So what happens here is just preliminary and we have, on tonight's agenda, there's only one item and that is about the Birmingham Country Club on Saxon Drive, about the ball court. So let me just, we'll just start the meeting. We have a couple of housekeeping things to take care of. First, attendance, we have six people here and I just want you to know, everybody on the board, on the Commission, that Dr. Patinga has resigned. There's an opening on the board now, so every member that's on the board is here, six of us out of the seven. So if anybody is from Bloomfield Township, want to be on the Planning Commission, there's an opening. Just so you know though, it still takes four positive votes or negative votes, I guess, but four votes to enact, to move anything forward. It's still a seven-member board, even though one's not here, we still need four votes, okay? So tonight we're going to hear about the Birmingham Country Club and... Before we do that, first, we have approval of the minutes of the last meeting. We've all had an opportunity to read all that and look at it. We have a motion to approve. Anybody? So moved. Second. Moved and seconded. All those in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Okay. The first thing we have is public comment, but this is comment that has nothing to do with what's on the agenda. When we get to that agenda item and we go through and you hear the presentations and all that, then we'll open it again for a public hearing and we'll have plenty of time to talk about that. So at this point, if anybody's here that wants to talk about anything other than what's on the agenda, now's the chance to do it. Please come up there, give your name, address, and you have three minutes. Good evening. Pete Webster. I live on the wall in Beverly Hills. And I just wanted to just quickly mention, going through this process because I'll speak at the public hearing, I think you ought to consider, or the Tonship ought to consider, providing notice to the affected landowners for the design review board meetings.
negative votes, I guess, but four votes to enact, to move anything forward. It's still a seven-member board, even though one's not here, we still need four votes, okay? So tonight we're going to hear about the Birmingham Country Club and... Before we do that, first, we have approval of the minutes of the last meeting. We've all had an opportunity to read all that and look at it. We have a motion to approve. Anybody? So moved. Second. Moved and seconded. All those in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Okay. The first thing we have is public comment, but this is comment that has nothing to do with what's on the agenda. When we get to that agenda item and we go through and you hear the presentations and all that, then we'll open it again for a public hearing and we'll have plenty of time to talk about that. So at this point, if anybody's here that wants to talk about anything other than what's on the agenda, now's the chance to do it. Please come up there, give your name, address, and you have three minutes. Good evening. Pete Webster. I live on the wall in Beverly Hills. And I just wanted to just quickly mention, going through this process because I'll speak at the public hearing, I think you ought to consider, or the Tonship ought to consider, providing notice to the affected landowners for the design review board meetings. And so I just offer that as a suggestion. It might be helpful as part of your process. That notice doesn't go out. The notice is very helpful. And you might want to consider that in the future. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Anything else that's not on the agenda? All right, then let's go to the public hearing for the site plan review of 1750 Saxon Drive, the Birmingham Country Club. Corey, you're going to do the presentation. Thank you. Thank you. So our case tonight is Birmingham Country Club at 1750 Saxon Drive. They are requesting four additional pickleball courts. This is where the property sits within our community. To the south is Beverly Hills. To the east and north is Birmingham. This is where it sits within our zoning map. You can see the white surrounding it. That is because it is all a different jurisdiction. But it is zoned R3, residential, multifamily residential. I also want to note that the master plan calls for this area to remain recreation into the future. So here is the site plan as proposed by the applicant. They are proposing four pickleball courts located along Saxon Drive and Norfolk Street. The project includes several updated elements.
I think you ought to consider, or the Tonship ought to consider, providing notice to the affected landowners for the design review board meetings. And so I just offer that as a suggestion. It might be helpful as part of your process. That notice doesn't go out. The notice is very helpful. And you might want to consider that in the future. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Anything else that's not on the agenda? All right, then let's go to the public hearing for the site plan review of 1750 Saxon Drive, the Birmingham Country Club. Corey, you're going to do the presentation. Thank you. Thank you. So our case tonight is Birmingham Country Club at 1750 Saxon Drive. They are requesting four additional pickleball courts. This is where the property sits within our community. To the south is Beverly Hills. To the east and north is Birmingham. This is where it sits within our zoning map. You can see the white surrounding it. That is because it is all a different jurisdiction. But it is zoned R3, residential, multifamily residential. I also want to note that the master plan calls for this area to remain recreation into the future. So here is the site plan as proposed by the applicant. They are proposing four pickleball courts located along Saxon Drive and Norfolk Street. The project includes several updated elements. The four pickleball courts, installation of an eight foot tall fencing surrounding the courts. There is fencing surrounding the courts and then there is also a sound attenuation wall located here proposed by the plans. They are also going to be relocating several trees and that is pretty much it. I did want to note that this case previously came before this body in June of 2022. At that time the planning commission voted to table the request to allow the applicant to conduct additional outreach and provide further. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Since that time, the applicant has commissioned a professional acoustic study. The study concluded that installation of an approximately eight-foot-high sound barrier wall along the south side of the courts would significantly reduce noise levels at nearby residential properties to approximately 50 decibels. So that was the study provided by the applicant, and then we routed it out to our sound consultants, HRC, who reviewed the plans and found that the study was valid. So this revised site plan now incorporates the sound attenuation wall that was conducted in the study.
So here is the site plan as proposed by the applicant. They are proposing four pickleball courts located along Saxon Drive and Norfolk Street. The project includes several updated elements. The four pickleball courts, installation of an eight foot tall fencing surrounding the courts. There is fencing surrounding the courts and then there is also a sound attenuation wall located here proposed by the plans. They are also going to be relocating several trees and that is pretty much it. I did want to note that this case previously came before this body in June of 2022. At that time the planning commission voted to table the request to allow the applicant to conduct additional outreach and provide further. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Since that time, the applicant has commissioned a professional acoustic study. The study concluded that installation of an approximately eight-foot-high sound barrier wall along the south side of the courts would significantly reduce noise levels at nearby residential properties to approximately 50 decibels. So that was the study provided by the applicant, and then we routed it out to our sound consultants, HRC, who reviewed the plans and found that the study was valid. So this revised site plan now incorporates the sound attenuation wall that was conducted in the study. It's located right here. One thing I want to touch on is the landscaping plan. So you'll note that this is the sound attenuation wall, this darker...oh, you can't see my mouse. Alright, so the dark line below the courts, that's going to be the sound attenuation wall. And then below that, you see the string of arborvitae in white. That is existing arborvitae that is currently, I believe, within the right-of-way. And the applicant is now proposing to touch that in any way. They're proposing to re-utilize that as screening. And then adding additional screening on the east and the north side of the pickleball courts, which you can see in green on the plan there. And then some further details, you can see at the top, the design for the fence that's going to be kind of the ball containment. And then below that is the proposed sound attenuation wall. And then this bottom image right here is sort of a side view showing the courts. I mean, your face is a proof of the housing... We're giving you to the place. We're going to be able to do... the left the sound attenuation wall the evergreen and then the road i also wanted to touch on the sound study that was provided by the applicant this shows you the difference between without the sound attenuation how much sound bleeds across saxon drive onto the neighboring residential
So this revised site plan now incorporates the sound attenuation wall that was conducted in the study. It's located right here. One thing I want to touch on is the landscaping plan. So you'll note that this is the sound attenuation wall, this darker...oh, you can't see my mouse. Alright, so the dark line below the courts, that's going to be the sound attenuation wall. And then below that, you see the string of arborvitae in white. That is existing arborvitae that is currently, I believe, within the right-of-way. And the applicant is now proposing to touch that in any way. They're proposing to re-utilize that as screening. And then adding additional screening on the east and the north side of the pickleball courts, which you can see in green on the plan there. And then some further details, you can see at the top, the design for the fence that's going to be kind of the ball containment. And then below that is the proposed sound attenuation wall. And then this bottom image right here is sort of a side view showing the courts. I mean, your face is a proof of the housing... We're giving you to the place. We're going to be able to do... the left the sound attenuation wall the evergreen and then the road i also wanted to touch on the sound study that was provided by the applicant this shows you the difference between without the sound attenuation how much sound bleeds across saxon drive onto the neighboring residential properties and then with the sound barrier that's projected to cut down on that significantly i believe the study found that with the sound attenuation wall the decibels should reduce by 11. then here's a rendering showing where they're going to sit on the property and then some site photos we took from our site visit today so these photos are standing kind of looking see that building right there they're kind of standing next to that building looking east where the pickleball courts are going to go this is standing from the parking lot facing where the pickleball courts are going to go standing even further back and then the photo on the left what is it the photo from the left is from belmoral and then these photos are showing further screening that is currently existing from norfolk with that that's everything for my presentation okay and we'll bring it back to the commission any questions for corey what day do you
the sound attenuation how much sound bleeds across saxon drive onto the neighboring residential properties and then with the sound barrier that's projected to cut down on that significantly i believe the study found that with the sound attenuation wall the decibels should reduce by 11. then here's a rendering showing where they're going to sit on the property and then some site photos we took from our site visit today so these photos are standing kind of looking see that building right there they're kind of standing next to that building looking east where the pickleball courts are going to go this is standing from the parking lot facing where the pickleball courts are going to go standing even further back and then the photo on the left what is it the photo from the left is from belmoral and then these photos are showing further screening that is currently existing from norfolk with that that's everything for my presentation okay and we'll bring it back to the commission any questions for corey what day do you want to add real quick so there's several variances that are needed as part of this request they're gonna need four variances the first is for having sports courts or sorry first is for the fence height the fence is kept at four feet they're proposing eight the second is for the location within the front yard the third is for having sports courts in a front yard and fourth is for being deficient 20 parking spaces with the addition of this new use I was parking so there was a parking study conducted with the new use they are deficient 20 spaces just touch base on that the applicant did provide a a detailed parking analysis in terms of how they currently manage their on-site traffic so it's something that I know that the applicant would be prepared to speak about they believe that with the use of their valet and their current membership that they would have ample parking for this proposed use so I think they can speak a little bit more on the traffic management plan that they did provide to the township I have a question about the I heard fence and then the
want to add real quick so there's several variances that are needed as part of this request they're gonna need four variances the first is for having sports courts or sorry first is for the fence height the fence is kept at four feet they're proposing eight the second is for the location within the front yard the third is for having sports courts in a front yard and fourth is for being deficient 20 parking spaces with the addition of this new use I was parking so there was a parking study conducted with the new use they are deficient 20 spaces just touch base on that the applicant did provide a a detailed parking analysis in terms of how they currently manage their on-site traffic so it's something that I know that the applicant would be prepared to speak about they believe that with the use of their valet and their current membership that they would have ample parking for this proposed use so I think they can speak a little bit more on the traffic management plan that they did provide to the township I have a question about the I heard fence and then the sound mitigation wall so I assume they're two different can you explain the difference in you know the height material what makes one offense and the other one a sound mitigation so this rendering actually pretty helpful for that so you can see there's the ball containment fence which is tucked very closely to the courts and gets higher on the ends i believe that's going to go up to 10 feet eight feet and then the sound attenuation wall is the darker wall off to the right side there that is also going to be eight feet wall sorry eight feet tall and it's going to be a solid wall sound attenuation the ball containment fence around the courts that's more of a chain link it is the solid uh mitigation wall of wood masonry uh i'll let the applicant do okay very good okay anybody else have any questions all right then the applicant won't you come on up thank you everyone my name is thank you hello everyone my name is eric myles with krieger clatt architects at 400 east lincoln uh suite a in rural oak michigan um i'm obviously the project architect for this
provide to the township I have a question about the I heard fence and then the sound mitigation wall so I assume they're two different can you explain the difference in you know the height material what makes one offense and the other one a sound mitigation so this rendering actually pretty helpful for that so you can see there's the ball containment fence which is tucked very closely to the courts and gets higher on the ends i believe that's going to go up to 10 feet eight feet and then the sound attenuation wall is the darker wall off to the right side there that is also going to be eight feet wall sorry eight feet tall and it's going to be a solid wall sound attenuation the ball containment fence around the courts that's more of a chain link it is the solid uh mitigation wall of wood masonry uh i'll let the applicant do okay very good okay anybody else have any questions all right then the applicant won't you come on up thank you everyone my name is thank you hello everyone my name is eric myles with krieger clatt architects at 400 east lincoln uh suite a in rural oak michigan um i'm obviously the project architect for this job and i don't want to belabor too many things a lot of the slides that i will show you now were already shown in the first presentation but i want to make sure we can get a few points across um and i can help answer any questions that may come up um as you can see here here's the same rendering that we had before showing that uh sound mitigation wall that we are installing uh one question that did come uh uh uh is what it's made of it's going to be a composite trex material most likely looking like a wood material but it'll be actually a composite which is a longer lasting material over time here is the site plan we have a roughly 152 foot long by 58 feet wide court with a French drain that goes around it to capture any water flowing this way we have Arborvitae at the north side and east side and then you can see the sound mitigation wall that we are putting here it is going to extend past the court 27 feet to the east and to the west to
at 400 east lincoln uh suite a in rural oak michigan um i'm obviously the project architect for this job and i don't want to belabor too many things a lot of the slides that i will show you now were already shown in the first presentation but i want to make sure we can get a few points across um and i can help answer any questions that may come up um as you can see here here's the same rendering that we had before showing that uh sound mitigation wall that we are installing uh one question that did come uh uh uh is what it's made of it's going to be a composite trex material most likely looking like a wood material but it'll be actually a composite which is a longer lasting material over time here is the site plan we have a roughly 152 foot long by 58 feet wide court with a French drain that goes around it to capture any water flowing this way we have Arborvitae at the north side and east side and then you can see the sound mitigation wall that we are putting here it is going to extend past the court 27 feet to the east and to the west to help mitigate the sound that transmits off to the side and that is 8 feet tall here you can see a space in between the the right-of-way line and the sound mitigation wall we were leaving this space open for the time being but if the need ever arises to place Arborvitae or something to century if those are existing Arborvitae along the property line down here ever go away we can mitigate the visual impact by planting new Arborvitae within that right away area this you can see is the cop path as was mentioned to help mitigate any traffic impacts there is a path that is currently used to get down to the paddle bar courts and the tennis courts doing any events or anything like that that a lot of the members would utilize as opposed to trying to park down though they would go to the main country club and then utilize that path I'm sorry that path exists now is that it does it's not like a paved path but it's that shows the general location that is used right now and I know ownership will be able to probably speak on that a bit more than I could you
here it is going to extend past the court 27 feet to the east and to the west to help mitigate the sound that transmits off to the side and that is 8 feet tall here you can see a space in between the the right-of-way line and the sound mitigation wall we were leaving this space open for the time being but if the need ever arises to place Arborvitae or something to century if those are existing Arborvitae along the property line down here ever go away we can mitigate the visual impact by planting new Arborvitae within that right away area this you can see is the cop path as was mentioned to help mitigate any traffic impacts there is a path that is currently used to get down to the paddle bar courts and the tennis courts doing any events or anything like that that a lot of the members would utilize as opposed to trying to park down though they would go to the main country club and then utilize that path I'm sorry that path exists now is that it does it's not like a paved path but it's that shows the general location that is used right now and I know ownership will be able to probably speak on that a bit more than I could you always saw this slide but basically showing elevations of the pick ball court fencing and the sound wall the basic strategy here is you know you're creating a solid surface something that can block about the noise that's coming off of the pickleball court back onto the property so that any sound that is making it past that is greatly reduced as previously mentioned we are aiming for a 50 decibel level which is considered pretty faint as you go up this is 10 times as much another 10 times as much so as the further you go down on this scale it greatly reduces it so if you see a like a 10 decibel level reduction it's pretty significant these you already saw on the previous slide you you you you you you you but this shows the sound report how measured from the center of the court, the decibel levels would be reaching to the residences without the sound mitigation wall. And the next few slides show the impact of that mitigation wall onto the neighboring properties.
ownership will be able to probably speak on that a bit more than I could you always saw this slide but basically showing elevations of the pick ball court fencing and the sound wall the basic strategy here is you know you're creating a solid surface something that can block about the noise that's coming off of the pickleball court back onto the property so that any sound that is making it past that is greatly reduced as previously mentioned we are aiming for a 50 decibel level which is considered pretty faint as you go up this is 10 times as much another 10 times as much so as the further you go down on this scale it greatly reduces it so if you see a like a 10 decibel level reduction it's pretty significant these you already saw on the previous slide you you you you you you you but this shows the sound report how measured from the center of the court, the decibel levels would be reaching to the residences without the sound mitigation wall. And the next few slides show the impact of that mitigation wall onto the neighboring properties. This is the overall layout of the property. There are limited spaces that we can actually place this pickleball court. One, we want to keep it within the same use area of the tennis courts and the paddleball courts. But additionally, we have to account for the floodplain, which obviously limits us to where we can place it, say, in the middle of the property. One concern that had been brought up previously was, you know, we're adding a lot of impervious surface. So what's going to happen to the rainwater that hits the ground and then rushes off? The engineer who is here can answer more technical questions about this. Says that we currently meet the needs of the stormwater system. However, what we have done is add roughly 1,600 cubit feet of underground detention beneath the courts. Well, if that water ever starts to back up in the system, it can slowly release it into the stormwater to avoid any, you know. as it was a great方 to get inside the church but if that water hasn't contained in any way. So, let's fix that in the morning notice and relax as soon as possible.
And the next few slides show the impact of that mitigation wall onto the neighboring properties. This is the overall layout of the property. There are limited spaces that we can actually place this pickleball court. One, we want to keep it within the same use area of the tennis courts and the paddleball courts. But additionally, we have to account for the floodplain, which obviously limits us to where we can place it, say, in the middle of the property. One concern that had been brought up previously was, you know, we're adding a lot of impervious surface. So what's going to happen to the rainwater that hits the ground and then rushes off? The engineer who is here can answer more technical questions about this. Says that we currently meet the needs of the stormwater system. However, what we have done is add roughly 1,600 cubit feet of underground detention beneath the courts. Well, if that water ever starts to back up in the system, it can slowly release it into the stormwater to avoid any, you know. as it was a great方 to get inside the church but if that water hasn't contained in any way. So, let's fix that in the morning notice and relax as soon as possible. too much water coming off of a strong storm event since our initial submission the design has changed in a couple of different ways originally the court was about one foot off the right-of-way line we have since moved this 16 feet away from that line further into the property the original design did not have the sound wall and now we have an eight foot sound wall the original design relied on the existing upper body hedge visual screening but now we have space that we could add additional screen screening in the future if those hedges died or the city decided to remove those we have space on our property to do so we did not have stormwater detention under the under the courts that has now been added and there are some very minor size changes to the to the courts themselves so just some key points we have complied with all the requests and requirements that were set forth by bloomford township this is a country club that has been here for a long time the existing uses there the paddle bar courts tennis courts we believe the addition of these pickleball courts are going to be consistent with the site's
too much water coming off of a strong storm event since our initial submission the design has changed in a couple of different ways originally the court was about one foot off the right-of-way line we have since moved this 16 feet away from that line further into the property the original design did not have the sound wall and now we have an eight foot sound wall the original design relied on the existing upper body hedge visual screening but now we have space that we could add additional screen screening in the future if those hedges died or the city decided to remove those we have space on our property to do so we did not have stormwater detention under the under the courts that has now been added and there are some very minor size changes to the to the courts themselves so just some key points we have complied with all the requests and requirements that were set forth by bloomford township this is a country club that has been here for a long time the existing uses there the paddle bar courts tennis courts we believe the addition of these pickleball courts are going to be consistent with the site's character and zoning based on the flood plain and the current you know golf layout this seemed to be the most practical location within the It's a steam facility to actually place the pickleball courts. Because this is a member focused amenity, we do not anticipate any additional traffic being generated by this use. The parking requirements, we believe, are fully satisfied based on the traffic study that was a parking study that was submitted. And we do plan on using the court path to mitigate any potential people using the street for parking. No new light is being added to the site. Storm water will not be detained as required by the city engineer. We have the sound mitigation wall, which gets everything down to that 50 decibel level. And like I mentioned, we have space for upper body for visual screening if needed. We have the civil engineer here, members of the country club, as well as the sound engineer. So if there are any additional questions, we're more than happy to answer.
courts we believe the addition of these pickleball courts are going to be consistent with the site's character and zoning based on the flood plain and the current you know golf layout this seemed to be the most practical location within the It's a steam facility to actually place the pickleball courts. Because this is a member focused amenity, we do not anticipate any additional traffic being generated by this use. The parking requirements, we believe, are fully satisfied based on the traffic study that was a parking study that was submitted. And we do plan on using the court path to mitigate any potential people using the street for parking. No new light is being added to the site. Storm water will not be detained as required by the city engineer. We have the sound mitigation wall, which gets everything down to that 50 decibel level. And like I mentioned, we have space for upper body for visual screening if needed. We have the civil engineer here, members of the country club, as well as the sound engineer. So if there are any additional questions, we're more than happy to answer. Thank you. Thank you. Did you folks, the engineers, do they want to make, just wait for questions? Or do you have anything that you want to add? All right, then let's bring it back here for questions. Can you, can the sound engineer or somebody tell us what the section of the wall looks like? The sound mitigation wall. The, the... Is there a graphic? Ah, let's see. Not in this plan. I'm not sure if you had that in the... I mean, it refers to it as a slap wall. Okay. We're gonna have to get the building up, the building up. What's the composition? It is going to essentially be four-by-four post into the ground. On each side of that are going to be five-and-a-half-inch treks, decks, horizontal slats that are tied up against one another to avoid any sound making it through. They'll also offset to help that as well. But it's essentially a solid fence. Well, it's a treks fence on both sides of a four-by-four. Correct. Is the sound engineer here? Yes. Could you come up for a minute? Please. Thank you. You can speak for that. Hi. Hi. My name is Mandy Kacher from Soundscape Engineering. Our company is in Plymouth, Michigan at 729 West Ann Arbor Trail.
So if there are any additional questions, we're more than happy to answer. Thank you. Thank you. Did you folks, the engineers, do they want to make, just wait for questions? Or do you have anything that you want to add? All right, then let's bring it back here for questions. Can you, can the sound engineer or somebody tell us what the section of the wall looks like? The sound mitigation wall. The, the... Is there a graphic? Ah, let's see. Not in this plan. I'm not sure if you had that in the... I mean, it refers to it as a slap wall. Okay. We're gonna have to get the building up, the building up. What's the composition? It is going to essentially be four-by-four post into the ground. On each side of that are going to be five-and-a-half-inch treks, decks, horizontal slats that are tied up against one another to avoid any sound making it through. They'll also offset to help that as well. But it's essentially a solid fence. Well, it's a treks fence on both sides of a four-by-four. Correct. Is the sound engineer here? Yes. Could you come up for a minute? Please. Thank you. You can speak for that. Hi. Hi. My name is Mandy Kacher from Soundscape Engineering. Our company is in Plymouth, Michigan at 729 West Ann Arbor Trail. Thank you. Can you talk about what makes a treks wall a sound wall? In order to block sound substantially in the frequencies of interest, the sound blocking capability of the wall needs to be 10 decibels better than what's diffracting over the wall. So sound, yeah, yeah, he has a graphic that kind of, you may have experienced light bending around, say, like the end of a door, if you have a door to a room open and the light bends around it. I'm going to go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go that's the one do you have with the barrier section of the barrier and and so the same thing happens with sound so what we're looking for is that that transmitted path is blocking at least 10 decibels more than what's diffracting over the wall and when you have a 10 decibel difference because again this is a log scale it does not add any sound so if you've got say 50 decibels plus 60
Our company is in Plymouth, Michigan at 729 West Ann Arbor Trail. Thank you. Can you talk about what makes a treks wall a sound wall? In order to block sound substantially in the frequencies of interest, the sound blocking capability of the wall needs to be 10 decibels better than what's diffracting over the wall. So sound, yeah, yeah, he has a graphic that kind of, you may have experienced light bending around, say, like the end of a door, if you have a door to a room open and the light bends around it. I'm going to go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go that's the one do you have with the barrier section of the barrier and and so the same thing happens with sound so what we're looking for is that that transmitted path is blocking at least 10 decibels more than what's diffracting over the wall and when you have a 10 decibel difference because again this is a log scale it does not add any sound so if you've got say 50 decibels plus 60 decibels it's 60 decibels because that 50 doesn't add anything to it so essentially the tread your modeling incorporated using the tracks which is just a solid surface yes we made sure that the sound transmission through the material that was used is 10 decibels or more at the frequencies of interest so paddle ball sound is more mid and high frequency say like as opposed to transportation noise you use like masonry on a highway and that's because there's a lot of low frequency noise engine noise and road noise is kind of 250 Hertz mid frequency you're getting to my point which is why did you pick the tracks as opposed to masonry or some soft goods or something it was an architectural we made all the page sure that it it fulfilled the acoustic requirement and it's up to architectural to select the material is there a so it's a four by four with tracks on both
a log scale it does not add any sound so if you've got say 50 decibels plus 60 decibels it's 60 decibels because that 50 doesn't add anything to it so essentially the tread your modeling incorporated using the tracks which is just a solid surface yes we made sure that the sound transmission through the material that was used is 10 decibels or more at the frequencies of interest so paddle ball sound is more mid and high frequency say like as opposed to transportation noise you use like masonry on a highway and that's because there's a lot of low frequency noise engine noise and road noise is kind of 250 Hertz mid frequency you're getting to my point which is why did you pick the tracks as opposed to masonry or some soft goods or something it was an architectural we made all the page sure that it it fulfilled the acoustic requirement and it's up to architectural to select the material is there a so it's a four by four with tracks on both sides and is there any benefit if there was a something introduced in the middle of it that helped absorb in addition to refract it would as long as you're blocking 10 decibels then it doesn't help the situation it would potentially block more sound through any energy getting through the first layer being absorbed you know just like a partition wall right the bad insulation in between studs so it absorbs some energy before it gets out the other side but if you're meeting that 10 decibel requirement then it would be additional kind of overkill it's like my English teacher used to say a plus is better than an a if there's just a small bit of benefit like putting a phone backer to the protection something I'm just wondering if that was explored and you arrived at the optimum outcome we can look at it but if it I don't remember the numbers offhand but if the sound wallet that is designed right now I'm just saying in theory if it's blocking 15 there's no benefit of blocking 20
to select the material is there a so it's a four by four with tracks on both sides and is there any benefit if there was a something introduced in the middle of it that helped absorb in addition to refract it would as long as you're blocking 10 decibels then it doesn't help the situation it would potentially block more sound through any energy getting through the first layer being absorbed you know just like a partition wall right the bad insulation in between studs so it absorbs some energy before it gets out the other side but if you're meeting that 10 decibel requirement then it would be additional kind of overkill it's like my English teacher used to say a plus is better than an a if there's just a small bit of benefit like putting a phone backer to the protection something I'm just wondering if that was explored and you arrived at the optimum outcome we can look at it but if it I don't remember the numbers offhand but if the sound wallet that is designed right now I'm just saying in theory if it's blocking 15 there's no benefit of blocking 20 I get it. That's a good answer. Thank you. I have a question for you. Go ahead. As part of your sound study, did you look at the impact as far as what the decibel level is, straight all the way on to the east? Yes, we did. And what is it without the wall, without sound mitigation? Almost every single location meets 50, except for one case where the sound source is off to the extreme northeast, then there's a location or a short stretch that is at 51 dBA. But no more than 51? Yes, we're not calculating any more than 51. Okay. And then a question for the architect. Quickly as far as, you said no new lighting. So is there existing lighting there for pickleball at night? There is existing lighting for the, not for pickleball, for the tennis courts off to the side, paddle courts, my apologies, but nothing in the location where the pickleball courts are going.
I get it. That's a good answer. Thank you. I have a question for you. Go ahead. As part of your sound study, did you look at the impact as far as what the decibel level is, straight all the way on to the east? Yes, we did. And what is it without the wall, without sound mitigation? Almost every single location meets 50, except for one case where the sound source is off to the extreme northeast, then there's a location or a short stretch that is at 51 dBA. But no more than 51? Yes, we're not calculating any more than 51. Okay. And then a question for the architect. Quickly as far as, you said no new lighting. So is there existing lighting there for pickleball at night? There is existing lighting for the, not for pickleball, for the tennis courts off to the side, paddle courts, my apologies, but nothing in the location where the pickleball courts are going. And nothing is planned to be added at all. There will be no lights for pickleball. Okay, thank you. I have a question. Go ahead. How far in terms of feet is the nearest residence? Thanks. Thank you. Thanks. Oops. Thanks. or the average the residential property line or the house the house or the either either is fine we have as of right now to the um from the corner of the court to the uh village of beverly hills line 109 feet so the houses are going to be set back further from that i don't know the exact additional number um so within like 300 feet yes yes has any sound measurements been made from the resident side we've made measurements excuse me on the sidewalk side is that where you're getting your information is from that location you know around the perimeter basically the ambient sound levels yeah were measured from the sidewalk in um two or three locations um so your question i'm not sure i answered it you did okay you had something
paddle courts, my apologies, but nothing in the location where the pickleball courts are going. And nothing is planned to be added at all. There will be no lights for pickleball. Okay, thank you. I have a question. Go ahead. How far in terms of feet is the nearest residence? Thanks. Thank you. Thanks. Oops. Thanks. or the average the residential property line or the house the house or the either either is fine we have as of right now to the um from the corner of the court to the uh village of beverly hills line 109 feet so the houses are going to be set back further from that i don't know the exact additional number um so within like 300 feet yes yes has any sound measurements been made from the resident side we've made measurements excuse me on the sidewalk side is that where you're getting your information is from that location you know around the perimeter basically the ambient sound levels yeah were measured from the sidewalk in um two or three locations um so your question i'm not sure i answered it you did okay you had something oh i'm sorry is anything else i don't want to take any of richie's questions but is the civil engineer here yes what was the basis of calculation for this the detention the additional detention uh the stormwater for the township engineer um they asked us to calculate the increase in impervious HISFERENANN. And so we went through a preliminary calculation. It's not fully designed yet because it's preliminary drawings, but we have, we did a calculation of the before and the after and providing the detention for the difference. And that met with what their requirements were. So we're not making the situation any worse than it is today. Well, you're taking care of what you're going to improve. Correct. And where does the outlet go? It goes into the existing storm sewer that heads to the west into the existing parking lot. Which then goes into the, goes down the line eventually to the river. Thank you. You have another one? Go ahead. Sorry, but I had a question for the sound engineer again. I don't know if everybody's familiar with tracks. Obviously a lot of people use it on their decks, but it's, it's, they don't make a tug and groove tracks as far as I know of.
locations um so your question i'm not sure i answered it you did okay you had something oh i'm sorry is anything else i don't want to take any of richie's questions but is the civil engineer here yes what was the basis of calculation for this the detention the additional detention uh the stormwater for the township engineer um they asked us to calculate the increase in impervious HISFERENANN. And so we went through a preliminary calculation. It's not fully designed yet because it's preliminary drawings, but we have, we did a calculation of the before and the after and providing the detention for the difference. And that met with what their requirements were. So we're not making the situation any worse than it is today. Well, you're taking care of what you're going to improve. Correct. And where does the outlet go? It goes into the existing storm sewer that heads to the west into the existing parking lot. Which then goes into the, goes down the line eventually to the river. Thank you. You have another one? Go ahead. Sorry, but I had a question for the sound engineer again. I don't know if everybody's familiar with tracks. Obviously a lot of people use it on their decks, but it's, it's, they don't make a tug and groove tracks as far as I know of. And I know that 90% of the concerns have to do with sound, obviously. So are you just using square edge tracks that you're budding together? Yes, that is the plan. And is there any chance that it, it'll shrink over time and create a void? Because we, because we, we don't want it to be 50 decibels when you install it and then a couple of years later, more than that. Right. Wood generally is going to, uh, shrink more, but composite is usually more stable. In addition because on each side, We are staggering where that horizontal line is even if there is in some areas some slight like gaps that form. You are not having a complete Transmission through that today is still going to be blocked by the rest of the tracks on the other side. So Trex is it just like Formica is a brand name for laminate Trex is a brand name for composite material Is there a similar composite material that you might have considered that would be tongue and groove so that
I don't know if everybody's familiar with tracks. Obviously a lot of people use it on their decks, but it's, it's, they don't make a tug and groove tracks as far as I know of. And I know that 90% of the concerns have to do with sound, obviously. So are you just using square edge tracks that you're budding together? Yes, that is the plan. And is there any chance that it, it'll shrink over time and create a void? Because we, because we, we don't want it to be 50 decibels when you install it and then a couple of years later, more than that. Right. Wood generally is going to, uh, shrink more, but composite is usually more stable. In addition because on each side, We are staggering where that horizontal line is even if there is in some areas some slight like gaps that form. You are not having a complete Transmission through that today is still going to be blocked by the rest of the tracks on the other side. So Trex is it just like Formica is a brand name for laminate Trex is a brand name for composite material Is there a similar composite material that you might have considered that would be tongue and groove so that There is no gap ever or is that not out there? I don't know. It's definitely something we can consider We're currently planning on Trex, but in general when we do these specifications for building permits It's going to be a composite that we can Specify to be tongue and groove to minimize any impact of that actually pulling apart And this Trex make only one thickness is it is it one inch or inch and an eighth or they make different Thicknesses in the product. Um, they make different thicknesses So what are we proposing for this right now? I believe it is three quarter inch thickness, but that's also on both sides of the So you have a inch and a half of total thickness Well, so you're using the three-quarter thickness not not the one inch so From the sound engineer perspective is is the density part of it or is it just the fact that it's a solid surface? I know that when we have to do Sound walls and retail buildings and other areas where it's even more critical. It's about the density. So would a one-inch thick tracks make a difference, two layers instead of the three-quarter inch? Or is that, again, overkill?
There is no gap ever or is that not out there? I don't know. It's definitely something we can consider We're currently planning on Trex, but in general when we do these specifications for building permits It's going to be a composite that we can Specify to be tongue and groove to minimize any impact of that actually pulling apart And this Trex make only one thickness is it is it one inch or inch and an eighth or they make different Thicknesses in the product. Um, they make different thicknesses So what are we proposing for this right now? I believe it is three quarter inch thickness, but that's also on both sides of the So you have a inch and a half of total thickness Well, so you're using the three-quarter thickness not not the one inch so From the sound engineer perspective is is the density part of it or is it just the fact that it's a solid surface? I know that when we have to do Sound walls and retail buildings and other areas where it's even more critical. It's about the density. So would a one-inch thick tracks make a difference, two layers instead of the three-quarter inch? Or is that, again, overkill? Yeah. If you're already blocking 15, there's no reason to block 20. So I don't, again, we can revisit those numbers and get back to that. And the labor's the same and it would just be a little bit more for the material. Yeah. But I'm still confused by if you block a certain number and you block more, it doesn't affect. Can you explain that? Right. Yeah, exactly. So if you add decibel levels, let's just use the same level. So 53 plus 53 is 56. And it just works out in the logarithmic math that way. But if you add 53 and 43, it remains 53. So if the sound going over is 53 and the sound going through is 43, and you're summing those at the receiver location, 53 plus 43 is 53. So if you're blocking more, let's just say you're blocking it down to 33, so 53 plus 33 is 53. It's still there. I know, the math is terrible. So 53 is the decibel. So 54 is the decibel. So 54 is the decibel. So 54 is the decibel.
Or is that, again, overkill? Yeah. If you're already blocking 15, there's no reason to block 20. So I don't, again, we can revisit those numbers and get back to that. And the labor's the same and it would just be a little bit more for the material. Yeah. But I'm still confused by if you block a certain number and you block more, it doesn't affect. Can you explain that? Right. Yeah, exactly. So if you add decibel levels, let's just use the same level. So 53 plus 53 is 56. And it just works out in the logarithmic math that way. But if you add 53 and 43, it remains 53. So if the sound going over is 53 and the sound going through is 43, and you're summing those at the receiver location, 53 plus 43 is 53. So if you're blocking more, let's just say you're blocking it down to 33, so 53 plus 33 is 53. It's still there. I know, the math is terrible. So 53 is the decibel. So 54 is the decibel. So 54 is the decibel. So 54 is the decibel. Yeah, I'm just throwing out a number. Right. Mm-hmm. And is there an ordinance decibel amount at the property lane that we have? I know we do. It's a 70 DBA, according to our noise ordinance. 70. And you're measuring with your statistics that it's going to be mostly 50, but one area is 51. Yeah, we're predicting that. Yeah, there is one location also to the southwest that needs a minor adjustment, and it's because it's slightly over 50 also. And what's the ambient if there's nothing going on at all? I believe, I don't have the report in front of me, but it's 43 or thereabouts. I don't know, Eric, if you have that. It's 43, maybe 45. The day we were there measuring, there was some lawn mowing going on, so we removed that from the data, because it's not a typical thing that's going on all the time. But that left us with a smaller sample. But I believe it was 43. Do you have it? It was 43 to 45.
Yeah, I'm just throwing out a number. Right. Mm-hmm. And is there an ordinance decibel amount at the property lane that we have? I know we do. It's a 70 DBA, according to our noise ordinance. 70. And you're measuring with your statistics that it's going to be mostly 50, but one area is 51. Yeah, we're predicting that. Yeah, there is one location also to the southwest that needs a minor adjustment, and it's because it's slightly over 50 also. And what's the ambient if there's nothing going on at all? I believe, I don't have the report in front of me, but it's 43 or thereabouts. I don't know, Eric, if you have that. It's 43, maybe 45. The day we were there measuring, there was some lawn mowing going on, so we removed that from the data, because it's not a typical thing that's going on all the time. But that left us with a smaller sample. But I believe it was 43. Do you have it? It was 43 to 45. Okay, thank you, 43 to 45. Okay, thank you very much. You're welcome. I have a couple of questions, some for the Country Club, but for the engineering and New York part, let me ask you a couple of things. First of all, first of all, As far as the drainage is concerned, water, sports courts now that are built are able to be built with pervious surface so that water can go through it, okay? Now that, I don't know about the court, when you make a court, you know, the pickleball surface, I'm not sure how that works, but I know that when they make sports courts in general, you can have them so water goes through. It doesn't have to be impervious, it's pervious. So, I would like to know if that has been considered, I know you put retention basins, but what about helping to mitigate more of it by using a pervious surface where water will go through? Yeah, I think we're kind of doing a hybrid almost because we're putting an edge drain around the perimeter of the courts, and so the water that does run off the court is getting collected in that perimeter drain, so it's given an opportunity to filter back into the ground before it's put into the detention system. So, I don't know that we specifically consider it a pervious court, but we felt that was
It was 43 to 45. Okay, thank you, 43 to 45. Okay, thank you very much. You're welcome. I have a couple of questions, some for the Country Club, but for the engineering and New York part, let me ask you a couple of things. First of all, first of all, As far as the drainage is concerned, water, sports courts now that are built are able to be built with pervious surface so that water can go through it, okay? Now that, I don't know about the court, when you make a court, you know, the pickleball surface, I'm not sure how that works, but I know that when they make sports courts in general, you can have them so water goes through. It doesn't have to be impervious, it's pervious. So, I would like to know if that has been considered, I know you put retention basins, but what about helping to mitigate more of it by using a pervious surface where water will go through? Yeah, I think we're kind of doing a hybrid almost because we're putting an edge drain around the perimeter of the courts, and so the water that does run off the court is getting collected in that perimeter drain, so it's given an opportunity to filter back into the ground before it's put into the detention system. So, I don't know that we specifically consider it a pervious court, but we felt that was a good solution to it, to help get that water filter back into the ground and then having the detention as a secondary. Okay. All right. All right. All right. Not being an engineer, just to take your word, I'm not an engineer. I just know that now, because people are concerned all over, in fact, in the township, we're looking at, we have a moratorium on sports courts. And one of the reasons is because of that very thing, but there are those now we've learned, I've learned. I've learned. I've learned. All right. water will go through right into the ground just like it's grass okay so the other I have a couple other things one of the graphics that we had showed without the wall with the wall okay and the one with the wall shows the sound cut cut off nicely on the Saxon Drive my concern all right yeah there you go all right now whichever doesn't matter the sound going toward is it Norfolk Norfolk there's nothing there I don't understand why a wall wasn't put in on on the site where the hedges the new hedges are on that side to block any sound going toward Norfolk I have the country club adjust that okay okay fine
So, I don't know that we specifically consider it a pervious court, but we felt that was a good solution to it, to help get that water filter back into the ground and then having the detention as a secondary. Okay. All right. All right. All right. Not being an engineer, just to take your word, I'm not an engineer. I just know that now, because people are concerned all over, in fact, in the township, we're looking at, we have a moratorium on sports courts. And one of the reasons is because of that very thing, but there are those now we've learned, I've learned. I've learned. I've learned. All right. water will go through right into the ground just like it's grass okay so the other I have a couple other things one of the graphics that we had showed without the wall with the wall okay and the one with the wall shows the sound cut cut off nicely on the Saxon Drive my concern all right yeah there you go all right now whichever doesn't matter the sound going toward is it Norfolk Norfolk there's nothing there I don't understand why a wall wasn't put in on on the site where the hedges the new hedges are on that side to block any sound going toward Norfolk I have the country club adjust that okay okay fine Tim Gardella general manager Birmingham Country Club evening the decibel level reaching Norfolk is actually below the 50 decibel requirement so thus there was not not a wall put on that east side okay okay very good I'm not sure I agree with that but that's okay I got the answer from you the other thing that I would like to know is to follow up what was said before is insulation between the walls to even further reduce the sound I know you said it reaches a certain level but to help out the neighbors on Saxon anyway because that's where the walls can be built the more the better I think And so I would, I'm just going to say, I would, I think that I would love to see a look into putting insulation in between there to help further reduce the noise. The other thing is, may I comment? Yes, of course. Sorry to interrupt. It, it's not, as long as the wall's blocking 10 decibels more than what's going over it, it won't help. It won't change the sound level. It, it's not the, it, once you reach that 10 decibel threshold, you can make it 50 decibels.
Tim Gardella general manager Birmingham Country Club evening the decibel level reaching Norfolk is actually below the 50 decibel requirement so thus there was not not a wall put on that east side okay okay very good I'm not sure I agree with that but that's okay I got the answer from you the other thing that I would like to know is to follow up what was said before is insulation between the walls to even further reduce the sound I know you said it reaches a certain level but to help out the neighbors on Saxon anyway because that's where the walls can be built the more the better I think And so I would, I'm just going to say, I would, I think that I would love to see a look into putting insulation in between there to help further reduce the noise. The other thing is, may I comment? Yes, of course. Sorry to interrupt. It, it's not, as long as the wall's blocking 10 decibels more than what's going over it, it won't help. It won't change the sound level. It, it's not the, it, once you reach that 10 decibel threshold, you can make it 50 decibels. It's all the same. Okay, so you're saying putting more in, not going to do anything. Right. It's, it's, it's not, again, as long as you're not transmitting too much sound through the barrier, it's the barrier effectiveness, insertion loss, they call it, is what's going over the barrier. Okay, and that's, that gets right into my next question. Why can't we make that, instead of eight feet, make that wall 10 feet to block even more sound going over the top of the wall? It's, from a sound point of view, that's possible. I don't know from architectural, wind loading, other requirements, it sounds like there's already a variance for even the eight feet. We have to have a variance to go eight feet. Yeah, so I, I can't answer that part of it, but yes, it would block more sound, but only in the shadow of the wall. So the, the graphic you had before showed like an angles and it showed sound going over the top. exactly if it's two feet higher it means it's got to go that much higher that much correct okay i'm just asking if that would help if that would make a difference if it's possible you know i mean i know you have to get a variance for eight feet so asking for two more feet doesn't gotta ask for variance right um essentially to my understanding the area of any possible sound reduction would
It, it's not the, it, once you reach that 10 decibel threshold, you can make it 50 decibels. It's all the same. Okay, so you're saying putting more in, not going to do anything. Right. It's, it's, it's not, again, as long as you're not transmitting too much sound through the barrier, it's the barrier effectiveness, insertion loss, they call it, is what's going over the barrier. Okay, and that's, that gets right into my next question. Why can't we make that, instead of eight feet, make that wall 10 feet to block even more sound going over the top of the wall? It's, from a sound point of view, that's possible. I don't know from architectural, wind loading, other requirements, it sounds like there's already a variance for even the eight feet. We have to have a variance to go eight feet. Yeah, so I, I can't answer that part of it, but yes, it would block more sound, but only in the shadow of the wall. So the, the graphic you had before showed like an angles and it showed sound going over the top. exactly if it's two feet higher it means it's got to go that much higher that much correct okay i'm just asking if that would help if that would make a difference if it's possible you know i mean i know you have to get a variance for eight feet so asking for two more feet doesn't gotta ask for variance right um essentially to my understanding the area of any possible sound reduction would basically be happening on the property of the country club it wouldn't have any impact on the residences across the street yeah actually it does okay it does i have a couple of questions i'm sorry stand correct ever elaborated what would the reduction be um i have to get my documents sorry what if i can follow up because i know we went through this with uh birmingham athletic club and with birmingham athletic club very similar issues a little different layout but we required a 12-foot wall and so i'm very curious to know the difference between an eight and at least a 10 for wall as far as the impact on the neighbors and then i think i remember that there was actually an improvement that the ambient sound went down is there anything that can be done to improve the sound impact to the neighbors you said the current ambient noise was 43 43 45 in that range yeah is there any way way to improve it for them considering you know any kind of
variance right um essentially to my understanding the area of any possible sound reduction would basically be happening on the property of the country club it wouldn't have any impact on the residences across the street yeah actually it does okay it does i have a couple of questions i'm sorry stand correct ever elaborated what would the reduction be um i have to get my documents sorry what if i can follow up because i know we went through this with uh birmingham athletic club and with birmingham athletic club very similar issues a little different layout but we required a 12-foot wall and so i'm very curious to know the difference between an eight and at least a 10 for wall as far as the impact on the neighbors and then i think i remember that there was actually an improvement that the ambient sound went down is there anything that can be done to improve the sound impact to the neighbors you said the current ambient noise was 43 43 45 in that range yeah is there any way way to improve it for them considering you know any kind of is there a way to do that improve the ambient yeah look to lower the sound of any kind of activity going out there below 43 you mean reduce the pickleball noise to the ambient not practically probably with a wall okay I want to I have a couple of questions I think she's gonna say oh I'm sorry I thought she asked no no not so just a quick prediction and in the shadow of the wall it's a three decibel difference at the sidewalk for between eight foot and ten foot wall thank you at the side so that three decibel difference is a just noticeable difference again we're dealing with you know a logarithmic scale so three decibels is a just noticeable difference five or six is a clearly noticeable difference and ten decibels is a having or a doubling depending on which direction you're going of the perceived loudness level but the three you're talking about is just at the sidewalk that's the distance correct yeah that's at the sidewalk where we put the receivers and our analysis
is there a way to do that improve the ambient yeah look to lower the sound of any kind of activity going out there below 43 you mean reduce the pickleball noise to the ambient not practically probably with a wall okay I want to I have a couple of questions I think she's gonna say oh I'm sorry I thought she asked no no not so just a quick prediction and in the shadow of the wall it's a three decibel difference at the sidewalk for between eight foot and ten foot wall thank you at the side so that three decibel difference is a just noticeable difference again we're dealing with you know a logarithmic scale so three decibels is a just noticeable difference five or six is a clearly noticeable difference and ten decibels is a having or a doubling depending on which direction you're going of the perceived loudness level but the three you're talking about is just at the sidewalk that's the distance correct yeah that's at the sidewalk where we put the receivers and our analysis when you design the I'm sorry question well sure I thought a couple more but go ahead When you designed the three-quarter treks on both sides, who calculated the size of the post and the frequency of the spacing of the post to see if it'll handle the wind load? Is that something that the structural people got involved in? The posts were more or less designed from a structural standpoint just for the support of the wall. The sound is being handled by the composite treks, not the posts themselves. The posts are four by four, not six by six. Correct. And they're 42 inches deep, or do they need to be deeper because of the height of the wall? And what's the frequency of the post? Minimum 42 inches deep just to get below the frost line. The final depth has not been calculated. Usually that will be done during building permits when the structural engineer is involved to make sure. So he or she hasn't determined what the spacing of the posts are yet? Correct. Decent amount of wind load on that eight-foot high wall, or more so if it's even 10-foot.
that's at the sidewalk where we put the receivers and our analysis when you design the I'm sorry question well sure I thought a couple more but go ahead When you designed the three-quarter treks on both sides, who calculated the size of the post and the frequency of the spacing of the post to see if it'll handle the wind load? Is that something that the structural people got involved in? The posts were more or less designed from a structural standpoint just for the support of the wall. The sound is being handled by the composite treks, not the posts themselves. The posts are four by four, not six by six. Correct. And they're 42 inches deep, or do they need to be deeper because of the height of the wall? And what's the frequency of the post? Minimum 42 inches deep just to get below the frost line. The final depth has not been calculated. Usually that will be done during building permits when the structural engineer is involved to make sure. So he or she hasn't determined what the spacing of the posts are yet? Correct. Decent amount of wind load on that eight-foot high wall, or more so if it's even 10-foot. Correct. This was designed in mind with some previous projects just as far as spacing goes. So we will have a structural engineer confirm the spacing is more than adequate for the wind loads and all that, but based on project history, we believe it's more than sufficient. All right, I have a few questions about operations from the country club. I'm not... engineering at this point but I think it's fair to ask them now in pre in the previous four years ago now when we looked at this there were questions about this and in some of the letters that we have for this and I want to just bring bring them up so we can get some answers number one events at the building at the he called the warming battle hot sorry it's a panel hot okay all right in there I was there looking at it it's a nice facility and and so that people complained that there were events there more than what would be just normally for a sports court with music and other noise etc etc now let me just ask this first before you get into that what hours do you do you think you anticipate that
Decent amount of wind load on that eight-foot high wall, or more so if it's even 10-foot. Correct. This was designed in mind with some previous projects just as far as spacing goes. So we will have a structural engineer confirm the spacing is more than adequate for the wind loads and all that, but based on project history, we believe it's more than sufficient. All right, I have a few questions about operations from the country club. I'm not... engineering at this point but I think it's fair to ask them now in pre in the previous four years ago now when we looked at this there were questions about this and in some of the letters that we have for this and I want to just bring bring them up so we can get some answers number one events at the building at the he called the warming battle hot sorry it's a panel hot okay all right in there I was there looking at it it's a nice facility and and so that people complained that there were events there more than what would be just normally for a sports court with music and other noise etc etc now let me just ask this first before you get into that what hours do you do you think you anticipate that the pickleball courts would be used in the design review process design review board the hours of operation were 7 a.m. to 9 p.m. 9 p.m. okay that's in the summer because yes it's light out you don't have lighting right no yeah there weren't there's no intention to put lighting right so it would have to be just what's light out at nine o'clock sure during the summer okay but what about events at the building complaints from folks concerns let me say concerns about music loud music about other things that were not intended for that and that would being you being done is that going to continue so we have created some policies that we would not permit any social there that were member driven to include more than 30 people so that is part of our it's a policy that just went in probably two years ago and so it has limited and reduced the amount of activity there's no social events there that can exceed that 30 person limit all right the last thing is about the parking I know you have to you I think I heard you say and I've read that it falls 2020 spaces short of the required amount now you we've said you said that
first before you get into that what hours do you do you think you anticipate that the pickleball courts would be used in the design review process design review board the hours of operation were 7 a.m. to 9 p.m. 9 p.m. okay that's in the summer because yes it's light out you don't have lighting right no yeah there weren't there's no intention to put lighting right so it would have to be just what's light out at nine o'clock sure during the summer okay but what about events at the building complaints from folks concerns let me say concerns about music loud music about other things that were not intended for that and that would being you being done is that going to continue so we have created some policies that we would not permit any social there that were member driven to include more than 30 people so that is part of our it's a policy that just went in probably two years ago and so it has limited and reduced the amount of activity there's no social events there that can exceed that 30 person limit all right the last thing is about the parking I know you have to you I think I heard you say and I've read that it falls 2020 spaces short of the required amount now you we've said you said that it you can handle it now if it's if more people will gravitate toward that now from the club and they need to park will they be parking further on site in the club or do you are we gonna have parking on the street the intention is that we have limited parking on the street certainly after yeah anyways we've limited parking on the street and our intention is that they would park either up at the clubhouse and use the path provided so you said that you're not you don't anticipate any additional people it's just they're gonna shift down right use this and from other things right so they'll particular park on site I'm not sure this parking allowed on that Saxon I'm not sure that's Beverly Hills I don't know what their rules public parking is permitted on the street but we do not use that we don't we have not permitted people to park on the street okay from the club Oh, I get that. No, you have no control. I get that. But you intend that any parking, any cars that are more people want to use those are going to stay parked up in the club, wherever up on the site and walk down or whatever. That's correct. Okay. All right.
falls 2020 spaces short of the required amount now you we've said you said that it you can handle it now if it's if more people will gravitate toward that now from the club and they need to park will they be parking further on site in the club or do you are we gonna have parking on the street the intention is that we have limited parking on the street certainly after yeah anyways we've limited parking on the street and our intention is that they would park either up at the clubhouse and use the path provided so you said that you're not you don't anticipate any additional people it's just they're gonna shift down right use this and from other things right so they'll particular park on site I'm not sure this parking allowed on that Saxon I'm not sure that's Beverly Hills I don't know what their rules public parking is permitted on the street but we do not use that we don't we have not permitted people to park on the street okay from the club Oh, I get that. No, you have no control. I get that. But you intend that any parking, any cars that are more people want to use those are going to stay parked up in the club, wherever up on the site and walk down or whatever. That's correct. Okay. All right. I think those are the, that's the questions I have at this moment right now. Anybody else have anything? Okay, then I would like to open up a public hearing. I'm sorry. I was just going to ask. Oh, I thought you said no. I did. I'm sorry. All right. I'm just having a hard time with understanding the path there. So does, is that golf path servicing the members now to get to the paddle courts? It actually services from tennis area and, and we utilize that paddle hut for our kids camp. So every day in the summertime, that is the path that's designated for our juniors to get from the tennis area to, um, the clubhouse and, and utilize the rest of the facility. Can you just tell me what those existing facilities are? Because none of my Birmingham country club friends have ever invited me over. Sure. That, that one little, uh, where the, the pink line, I'm colorblind, so I think it's pink, but, uh, okay. Yeah. Right there. We just highlight the, uh, panel hut. Bring it down. Yeah. Right there. That, that is the area that people utilize to, uh, as a warming hut. on our, it looks great. Not at least, right? Thank you.
I think those are the, that's the questions I have at this moment right now. Anybody else have anything? Okay, then I would like to open up a public hearing. I'm sorry. I was just going to ask. Oh, I thought you said no. I did. I'm sorry. All right. I'm just having a hard time with understanding the path there. So does, is that golf path servicing the members now to get to the paddle courts? It actually services from tennis area and, and we utilize that paddle hut for our kids camp. So every day in the summertime, that is the path that's designated for our juniors to get from the tennis area to, um, the clubhouse and, and utilize the rest of the facility. Can you just tell me what those existing facilities are? Because none of my Birmingham country club friends have ever invited me over. Sure. That, that one little, uh, where the, the pink line, I'm colorblind, so I think it's pink, but, uh, okay. Yeah. Right there. We just highlight the, uh, panel hut. Bring it down. Yeah. Right there. That, that is the area that people utilize to, uh, as a warming hut. on our, it looks great. Not at least, right? Thank you. paddle and or we use for kids camp in the summer yes that's correct and the the for two great courts are are basically clay courts and then the four to the left are hard service courts thank you you're welcome all right then we're gonna open up to the public hearing yeah public comment yeah public we're gonna open it up now I'm gonna ask a couple of things number one you come up name and address you have three minutes that's standard for everybody what I'm what I'm going to ask you we want to hear what you have to say and as evidenced by the previous time this was here we listened to what you had to say and we are going to listen to you what we want you to do is to say what you have to say but treat us with respect be civil and we will listen to what you have to say it's been proven that we do so with that let's open that up just come on up walk one after the other and we can move through this and let's see what you have to say we're gonna have Cory take the three-minute timer if that works for the board sure yes yes
paddle and or we use for kids camp in the summer yes that's correct and the the for two great courts are are basically clay courts and then the four to the left are hard service courts thank you you're welcome all right then we're gonna open up to the public hearing yeah public comment yeah public we're gonna open it up now I'm gonna ask a couple of things number one you come up name and address you have three minutes that's standard for everybody what I'm what I'm going to ask you we want to hear what you have to say and as evidenced by the previous time this was here we listened to what you had to say and we are going to listen to you what we want you to do is to say what you have to say but treat us with respect be civil and we will listen to what you have to say it's been proven that we do so with that let's open that up just come on up walk one after the other and we can move through this and let's see what you have to say we're gonna have Cory take the three-minute timer if that works for the board sure yes yes you watch on ball moral I want to object to the three limit limitation that's for public comment for public hearing I respect the chair's decision in that regard I just completely I disagree with that. I'm gonna cover just a couple things at a high level. One, the courts as proposed are going to a spot which was proposed before and was specifically rejected, and that's where you get the paddle ball courts today. They currently play pickle ball, not paddle, but pickle ball on these courts. And so this is like BAC where they were doing it without any authorization and been doing it, and they should be admonished for that, should be aware of that. That I want to, other people will talk about the partying and the noise of the operations, but as part of this process, there was supposed to be an operational plan that was supposed to be written and binding, never did it. The traffic study that was referenced is years old. I'll speak to that. I'm gonna focus in just in the interest of time. On a time study. One, the time study that they did and the methodology is flawed. They used slow time methodology for the DBA.
the three-minute timer if that works for the board sure yes yes you watch on ball moral I want to object to the three limit limitation that's for public comment for public hearing I respect the chair's decision in that regard I just completely I disagree with that. I'm gonna cover just a couple things at a high level. One, the courts as proposed are going to a spot which was proposed before and was specifically rejected, and that's where you get the paddle ball courts today. They currently play pickle ball, not paddle, but pickle ball on these courts. And so this is like BAC where they were doing it without any authorization and been doing it, and they should be admonished for that, should be aware of that. That I want to, other people will talk about the partying and the noise of the operations, but as part of this process, there was supposed to be an operational plan that was supposed to be written and binding, never did it. The traffic study that was referenced is years old. I'll speak to that. I'm gonna focus in just in the interest of time. On a time study. One, the time study that they did and the methodology is flawed. They used slow time methodology for the DBA. They should be using fast time methodology. Fast time methodology is what is standard. City of Ann Arbor uses fast time. The state of Michigan uses fast time. I submitted a sound engineering report review, which you now have part of the record, which you should take a look at, and you should have HRC look at it. So you shouldn't make a decision tonight, you should review it. When you look at the fast time response. You should review it. You should review it. You should review it. You should review it. Thank you. You don't get 50 DBA, you get 61 DBA. Not all DBAs are created equal. And for the sound engineer to suggest that sound is like light, that's wrong. Sound is like smoke. You should think about that. I should also point out that the insertion loss, as detailed in our report, doesn't get you down. And when there's a similar graphic, it only drops about 5 DBA, and then it drops down even less immediately to the south. You've already pointed out, or I should also point out, the report doesn't study tracks, right? They said that they did, it doesn't study. It recommends certain materials, but it doesn't study tracks. So all your questions about tracks and
They used slow time methodology for the DBA. They should be using fast time methodology. Fast time methodology is what is standard. City of Ann Arbor uses fast time. The state of Michigan uses fast time. I submitted a sound engineering report review, which you now have part of the record, which you should take a look at, and you should have HRC look at it. So you shouldn't make a decision tonight, you should review it. When you look at the fast time response. You should review it. You should review it. You should review it. You should review it. Thank you. You don't get 50 DBA, you get 61 DBA. Not all DBAs are created equal. And for the sound engineer to suggest that sound is like light, that's wrong. Sound is like smoke. You should think about that. I should also point out that the insertion loss, as detailed in our report, doesn't get you down. And when there's a similar graphic, it only drops about 5 DBA, and then it drops down even less immediately to the south. You've already pointed out, or I should also point out, the report doesn't study tracks, right? They said that they did, it doesn't study. It recommends certain materials, but it doesn't study tracks. So all your questions about tracks and the answers were all speculation. It wasn't studied, okay? There's sound methodology and the suggestion that this drops 10 DBA and gets you to 50 at the property line ain't true, right? When you do a sound study based upon state law and based upon methodology that attends to the popping of the pickleball, you have to use fast response and you don't even get close, anywhere near close to this. Other parts of the site plan in terms of the parking. The parking is currently 20 short. Their own parking study says that the demand from the additional courts will cause additional 14 more spaces and their own people said that 14- it doesn't exist. ought to be placed in the area where the complex is. The review engineer by the township said the path doesn't make any sense. When you look at the email traffic, he questions that and he says no one's going to use that. You need to have parking in the area. And then I would then refer, lastly, in my submission, I gave you an aerial photograph by a drone from Channel 4 News. By sheer coincidence, Out of the Blue was there, and on that picture, they're parking up and down Saxon.
So all your questions about tracks and the answers were all speculation. It wasn't studied, okay? There's sound methodology and the suggestion that this drops 10 DBA and gets you to 50 at the property line ain't true, right? When you do a sound study based upon state law and based upon methodology that attends to the popping of the pickleball, you have to use fast response and you don't even get close, anywhere near close to this. Other parts of the site plan in terms of the parking. The parking is currently 20 short. Their own parking study says that the demand from the additional courts will cause additional 14 more spaces and their own people said that 14- it doesn't exist. ought to be placed in the area where the complex is. The review engineer by the township said the path doesn't make any sense. When you look at the email traffic, he questions that and he says no one's going to use that. You need to have parking in the area. And then I would then refer, lastly, in my submission, I gave you an aerial photograph by a drone from Channel 4 News. By sheer coincidence, Out of the Blue was there, and on that picture, they're parking up and down Saxon. And not only did they park on Saxon, they park on the side streets. There was a significant parking problem, and then I heard tonight that there was a kids club at the hut. We've been very generous with the time. Thank you very much. Good evening. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm Brad Host. I live at 416 Park Street in Birmingham, but I'm currently a commissioner in Birmingham. And I'd like to start by saying I assume you received our Tom Marcus letter as city manager from approximately four years ago, as well as the current city manager's letter, Jana Ecker, from March 13th. But on behalf of- On behalf of the residents of Birmingham, the first thing I'd like to say is the drawings that are presented are beautiful. But they don't show how much variance there is with the neighbors to the east,
By sheer coincidence, Out of the Blue was there, and on that picture, they're parking up and down Saxon. And not only did they park on Saxon, they park on the side streets. There was a significant parking problem, and then I heard tonight that there was a kids club at the hut. We've been very generous with the time. Thank you very much. Good evening. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm Brad Host. I live at 416 Park Street in Birmingham, but I'm currently a commissioner in Birmingham. And I'd like to start by saying I assume you received our Tom Marcus letter as city manager from approximately four years ago, as well as the current city manager's letter, Jana Ecker, from March 13th. But on behalf of- On behalf of the residents of Birmingham, the first thing I'd like to say is the drawings that are presented are beautiful. But they don't show how much variance there is with the neighbors to the east, which would be Norfolk and Birmingham residents, as well as to the south, which would be this village of Beverly Hills. And that is, of course, purposeful. This is strictly a self-imposed hardship on behalf of Birmingham Country Club. They have 165 acres, but they would prefer to put these in front and close to the residents that have joined them for possibly 100 years. There's no talk about the neighbors here. And the reason I'm here is to share with you that I believe the city of Birmingham commission would like you to recognize the peace and tranquility that the people on Norfolk as well as in the village on Saxon should have, and how this is being compromised. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you.
But they don't show how much variance there is with the neighbors to the east, which would be Norfolk and Birmingham residents, as well as to the south, which would be this village of Beverly Hills. And that is, of course, purposeful. This is strictly a self-imposed hardship on behalf of Birmingham Country Club. They have 165 acres, but they would prefer to put these in front and close to the residents that have joined them for possibly 100 years. There's no talk about the neighbors here. And the reason I'm here is to share with you that I believe the city of Birmingham commission would like you to recognize the peace and tranquility that the people on Norfolk as well as in the village on Saxon should have, and how this is being compromised. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you. Good evening. Tom Schneider, 1288 Saxon in Birmingham. Just a couple points. I mean, we're talking about a business that's operating in a residentially. I think R3 multifamily was mentioned. You know, single family. Sorry. Sorry. Okay. Thank you. You know, we've picked these houses in these neighborhoods to raise our families. It's really making me uncomfortable that I am the house on the corner to the east, and there is no consideration for us. There's no, you know, pickleball noise is one thing, but there's also the noise of the players and the yelling, the profanities. There's no protections for that. There's no operating plan that defines, you know, 9 p.m. is like I've got a one-year-old daughter an hour and a half after her bedtime and her nursery face is the country club. Stuff like that is very concerning to me. You know, as you guys have created this self-imposed moratorium on sports courts, I don't think it's really realistic that we should be making any exceptions for setbacks or other considerations while this moratorium is going on. It doesn't seem fair that if their application was in and the rules changed that they should be governed by the old rules, not the new rules. I think there needs to be consideration for that. I think we need to
Good evening. Tom Schneider, 1288 Saxon in Birmingham. Just a couple points. I mean, we're talking about a business that's operating in a residentially. I think R3 multifamily was mentioned. You know, single family. Sorry. Sorry. Okay. Thank you. You know, we've picked these houses in these neighborhoods to raise our families. It's really making me uncomfortable that I am the house on the corner to the east, and there is no consideration for us. There's no, you know, pickleball noise is one thing, but there's also the noise of the players and the yelling, the profanities. There's no protections for that. There's no operating plan that defines, you know, 9 p.m. is like I've got a one-year-old daughter an hour and a half after her bedtime and her nursery face is the country club. Stuff like that is very concerning to me. You know, as you guys have created this self-imposed moratorium on sports courts, I don't think it's really realistic that we should be making any exceptions for setbacks or other considerations while this moratorium is going on. It doesn't seem fair that if their application was in and the rules changed that they should be governed by the old rules, not the new rules. I think there needs to be consideration for that. I think we need to either decline this proposal or pause altogether until you guys have sorted out what you want to do in the future. Thank you. Thank you very much. Susan Randall 1220 Saxon so I'm east of the golf course a couple houses from Tom and I'm concerned that that mitigation wall does not absorb sound it will project sound off of it bounce sound off of it and like Peter pointed out it's like smoke it'll go over and there's no protection to the east the wind typically comes from the west so we hear those sounds very loudly and it's an accumulation from the tennis courts the paddle ball courts and then there'll be pickleball courts on top of all that plus they call it the paddle ball court or hut it's a party hut and I want to know is that a second building because it doesn't look like where the original building is being utilized for parties very loud and if they're only allowing 30 people in there and there are times that there's 30 that's a lot of people and it's and they're a very loud 30 whether they're 10 or 30 that's it's very very loud I also noticed on the charts of the sound waves that they look like they're um manipulated so when the center of the with the wall with the center of the play area moves to right to left from center
not the new rules. I think there needs to be consideration for that. I think we need to either decline this proposal or pause altogether until you guys have sorted out what you want to do in the future. Thank you. Thank you very much. Susan Randall 1220 Saxon so I'm east of the golf course a couple houses from Tom and I'm concerned that that mitigation wall does not absorb sound it will project sound off of it bounce sound off of it and like Peter pointed out it's like smoke it'll go over and there's no protection to the east the wind typically comes from the west so we hear those sounds very loudly and it's an accumulation from the tennis courts the paddle ball courts and then there'll be pickleball courts on top of all that plus they call it the paddle ball court or hut it's a party hut and I want to know is that a second building because it doesn't look like where the original building is being utilized for parties very loud and if they're only allowing 30 people in there and there are times that there's 30 that's a lot of people and it's and they're a very loud 30 whether they're 10 or 30 that's it's very very loud I also noticed on the charts of the sound waves that they look like they're um manipulated so when the center of the with the wall with the center of the play area moves to right to left from center that circle seems to go oval the sides come in like they're trying to prove that it's not going over the road to the Norfolk homes there so I noticed that on the on the starts. Thank you. Thank you very much. Hi, before my time starts could you change the view to the like the surrounding communities? Because I want to reference that a couple of times. The area. The area. Yeah. Thank you. Ooh. First shot. That's great. Thank you. Hi, I'm Dave Tengler. I live at 18832 Riverside Drive. Riverside Drive's on the back side of people who live on Saxon. So I have one house between me and the pickleball court. I'm also a sound
people in there and there are times that there's 30 that's a lot of people and it's and they're a very loud 30 whether they're 10 or 30 that's it's very very loud I also noticed on the charts of the sound waves that they look like they're um manipulated so when the center of the with the wall with the center of the play area moves to right to left from center that circle seems to go oval the sides come in like they're trying to prove that it's not going over the road to the Norfolk homes there so I noticed that on the on the starts. Thank you. Thank you very much. Hi, before my time starts could you change the view to the like the surrounding communities? Because I want to reference that a couple of times. The area. The area. Yeah. Thank you. Ooh. First shot. That's great. Thank you. Hi, I'm Dave Tengler. I live at 18832 Riverside Drive. Riverside Drive's on the back side of people who live on Saxon. So I have one house between me and the pickleball court. I'm also a sound engineer at Ford Motor Company. So I'm familiar with some of the DBA discussion. And that we talked about fast sound or slow sound. It has to do with the sampling rate of sound that you can have a real big spike. But if you sample 10 times, you may average that sound and make it like a determination of a sound level. So it's noticing that at the epicenter, we might have been using the assumption that the sound is starting at like 75 dB and that it was then decaying after like distance decays it. And then there's also reflections of sound. So and sound does travel or bent. So the taller the walls, the better that Yes, see you later. I see you later. like less sound escapes over top of the walls if you put walls around the entire area it will reflect sound and make that like uncomfortable possibly for users unless you have some sound absorption so these were some of the physics that we were dealing with so for my home on Riverside today I hear about this loudness and there's no way that 60 DB or 50 DB can still erode
house between me and the pickleball court. I'm also a sound engineer at Ford Motor Company. So I'm familiar with some of the DBA discussion. And that we talked about fast sound or slow sound. It has to do with the sampling rate of sound that you can have a real big spike. But if you sample 10 times, you may average that sound and make it like a determination of a sound level. So it's noticing that at the epicenter, we might have been using the assumption that the sound is starting at like 75 dB and that it was then decaying after like distance decays it. And then there's also reflections of sound. So and sound does travel or bent. So the taller the walls, the better that Yes, see you later. I see you later. like less sound escapes over top of the walls if you put walls around the entire area it will reflect sound and make that like uncomfortable possibly for users unless you have some sound absorption so these were some of the physics that we were dealing with so for my home on Riverside today I hear about this loudness and there's no way that 60 DB or 50 DB can still erode to that point for me to hear that sound so pickleball its spikes are measured around a hundred and twenty DB that one quick spike and then it begins its decay or its travel or its reflection and so I'm concerned that we're way off possibly as good estimations using an assumption on a sound or measurement with the sample rate but it's nowhere near actual that's the reason why people are upset about pickleball sound is because it's like gunshots occurring with very sharp spikes sound different than tennis or vacuum cleaners or whatever else not all sounds are created equal so for my home I was I came here one week when it was it was delayed by accident and I met a gentleman who actually lives across like they live north of the of the golf course and he was coming because he was here pickleball sound because the sound, although it decays by distance, it's traveling across the valley and it's echoing out into that area. And it's no way that you could start at 75 dB and be making it out to that way. Every 10 dB is a doubling of the loudness of sound.
Riverside today I hear about this loudness and there's no way that 60 DB or 50 DB can still erode to that point for me to hear that sound so pickleball its spikes are measured around a hundred and twenty DB that one quick spike and then it begins its decay or its travel or its reflection and so I'm concerned that we're way off possibly as good estimations using an assumption on a sound or measurement with the sample rate but it's nowhere near actual that's the reason why people are upset about pickleball sound is because it's like gunshots occurring with very sharp spikes sound different than tennis or vacuum cleaners or whatever else not all sounds are created equal so for my home I was I came here one week when it was it was delayed by accident and I met a gentleman who actually lives across like they live north of the of the golf course and he was coming because he was here pickleball sound because the sound, although it decays by distance, it's traveling across the valley and it's echoing out into that area. And it's no way that you could start at 75 dB and be making it out to that way. Every 10 dB is a doubling of the loudness of sound. And so that gentleman, my home, these surrounding homes, we're hearing these sounds with the existing amount. So if the clapping picks up to more frequent sound, it's really intolerable. All of these homes are million dollar homes. My home has been appreciating. It's one of the lesser homes, more beat up, but I'm up to like 700,000. Most of the homes are million dollar homes with people who've invested their lives in that area. So that's the tie up is the noise pollution is really not acceptable with any type of wall or surrounding. It's your moratorium is the right way to go. Thank you for your time. Thank you so much. Thank you. Hi, I'm Maureen Field at 1732 Norfolk Street in Birmingham. And could I see the slide, please, of the before and after the wall, the sound wall? Okay? And you can see where Norfolk is. It's east of the country club. This sound wall does absolutely nothing for my house and the houses near me. I am completely opposed to the whole problem.
and be making it out to that way. Every 10 dB is a doubling of the loudness of sound. And so that gentleman, my home, these surrounding homes, we're hearing these sounds with the existing amount. So if the clapping picks up to more frequent sound, it's really intolerable. All of these homes are million dollar homes. My home has been appreciating. It's one of the lesser homes, more beat up, but I'm up to like 700,000. Most of the homes are million dollar homes with people who've invested their lives in that area. So that's the tie up is the noise pollution is really not acceptable with any type of wall or surrounding. It's your moratorium is the right way to go. Thank you for your time. Thank you so much. Thank you. Hi, I'm Maureen Field at 1732 Norfolk Street in Birmingham. And could I see the slide, please, of the before and after the wall, the sound wall? Okay? And you can see where Norfolk is. It's east of the country club. This sound wall does absolutely nothing for my house and the houses near me. I am completely opposed to the whole problem. I think there's plenty of place on the country club property to put pickleball courts and I have heard people say they don't want to interfere with the golfer's concentration on making putts and things like that. Well, I think it's quite different for us who are hearing this sound from 7 a.m. until 9 p.m. every day and with all these additional courts, it's just going to be lots worse. So, I am against the project. I think it should go in the middle of their property, not near my property. Thank you. Thank you. Hi, good evening. My name is Penny Webster and I live at 32906 Balmoral Street in Beverly Hills. I just want to begin by saying that our residents are not opposed to BCC. We're not opposed to recreation. BCC has been a part of the community. We appreciate that. However, tonight's request is not about continuing the existing use. It's about expanding and intensifying a special land use directly adjacent to homes. And under the township ordinance, the burden is on the applicant to prove that the expanded use will remain compatible with the surrounding residential neighborhood, not simply tolerant.
I think there's plenty of place on the country club property to put pickleball courts and I have heard people say they don't want to interfere with the golfer's concentration on making putts and things like that. Well, I think it's quite different for us who are hearing this sound from 7 a.m. until 9 p.m. every day and with all these additional courts, it's just going to be lots worse. So, I am against the project. I think it should go in the middle of their property, not near my property. Thank you. Thank you. Hi, good evening. My name is Penny Webster and I live at 32906 Balmoral Street in Beverly Hills. I just want to begin by saying that our residents are not opposed to BCC. We're not opposed to recreation. BCC has been a part of the community. We appreciate that. However, tonight's request is not about continuing the existing use. It's about expanding and intensifying a special land use directly adjacent to homes. And under the township ordinance, the burden is on the applicant to prove that the expanded use will remain compatible with the surrounding residential neighborhood, not simply tolerant. This increased level of intensity is not harmonious and appropriate in character with the surrounding residential character. And it's more intrusive. And we ask you to please pause this. or deny it secondly you've already heard so much about the noise the bcc noise study bottom line is insufficient and while we were not provided it and no one asked for our response to it we took the initiative to go to some top-notch a plus highly credentialed noise experts and we have provided you you know with their response to this which is essentially saying this is bunk this isn't right they didn't use the right methodology noise is complex we've already heard these numbers it's complex you have to take a pause you have to review this more widely the third the ordinance requires the use that must not create traffic congestion residential streets aren't designed to function as collector roads for an expanded recreational facility and the record does not provide sufficient traffic analysis to demonstrate that these impacts can be safely accommodated uh finally or actually not finally but it has to also comport with your master plan i've heard
And under the township ordinance, the burden is on the applicant to prove that the expanded use will remain compatible with the surrounding residential neighborhood, not simply tolerant. This increased level of intensity is not harmonious and appropriate in character with the surrounding residential character. And it's more intrusive. And we ask you to please pause this. or deny it secondly you've already heard so much about the noise the bcc noise study bottom line is insufficient and while we were not provided it and no one asked for our response to it we took the initiative to go to some top-notch a plus highly credentialed noise experts and we have provided you you know with their response to this which is essentially saying this is bunk this isn't right they didn't use the right methodology noise is complex we've already heard these numbers it's complex you have to take a pause you have to review this more widely the third the ordinance requires the use that must not create traffic congestion residential streets aren't designed to function as collector roads for an expanded recreational facility and the record does not provide sufficient traffic analysis to demonstrate that these impacts can be safely accommodated uh finally or actually not finally but it has to also comport with your master plan i've heard discussion of that and the master plan emphasizes preserving low density residential character and protecting the quality of life and established neighborhoods by protecting the quiet enjoyment of homes the livability of residential neighborhoods and minimizing noise and traffic impacts this must just be the this might just be the wrong use for this place they want to do it i understand it it's a totally hip you know this latest thing to do but this isn't the right place for it it's not the right use for it The township also, it's pointed out, has adopted a moratorium on sport courts. And while this application is four years old, it is functionally indistinguishable from a new application. It's four years old. You know, take a pause, talk to your experts, people that don't have a motivation on one side or the other. Perhaps have BCC talk with us eventually. Perhaps model the BAC approvals that you did, where you had all of the neighborhood associations approved it. Why did they approve it? Because the club worked with the neighborhood to make sure that it was acceptable. The BCC has options, they have 157 acres. It may not be convenient, it may be costly, but they have other options. They can do what BAC did, perhaps, convert a court.
uh finally or actually not finally but it has to also comport with your master plan i've heard discussion of that and the master plan emphasizes preserving low density residential character and protecting the quality of life and established neighborhoods by protecting the quiet enjoyment of homes the livability of residential neighborhoods and minimizing noise and traffic impacts this must just be the this might just be the wrong use for this place they want to do it i understand it it's a totally hip you know this latest thing to do but this isn't the right place for it it's not the right use for it The township also, it's pointed out, has adopted a moratorium on sport courts. And while this application is four years old, it is functionally indistinguishable from a new application. It's four years old. You know, take a pause, talk to your experts, people that don't have a motivation on one side or the other. Perhaps have BCC talk with us eventually. Perhaps model the BAC approvals that you did, where you had all of the neighborhood associations approved it. Why did they approve it? Because the club worked with the neighborhood to make sure that it was acceptable. The BCC has options, they have 157 acres. It may not be convenient, it may be costly, but they have other options. They can do what BAC did, perhaps, convert a court. They can cover, they can do an enclosed structure that minimizes the sound. We haven't talked about that. How about a brick facade that doesn't have windows? You know, it can look attractive, it can be enclosed. There are other options that I really, we need to take a pause. We're at three minutes, so. Okay, okay. For these reasons, let me just jump ahead. I'll say, I just want to say it's, a special end use can only be approved and the commission can make clear evidence-based findings that the use will be compatible with the surrounding homes, will not be detrimental to nearby properties, will not create unacceptable traffic noise or intensification of use. And at this time, the record does not support those findings. For this reasons, for these reasons, we respectfully- So, can we do it, can't tackle that as far as interaction with the request a planning commission deny the requested expansion to provide ample opportunity for you all to gather and fully review objective and current standards and methodologies concerning the impacts of pickleball courts placed right next to homes that are utilizing the appropriate methodology and to permit BCC another opportunity to seek an alternative less intrusive option and meet with neighbors to hopefully find a compatible resolution. Thank you. Thank you. I think the lady was, yeah, I think she was up first, so, okay.
They can do what BAC did, perhaps, convert a court. They can cover, they can do an enclosed structure that minimizes the sound. We haven't talked about that. How about a brick facade that doesn't have windows? You know, it can look attractive, it can be enclosed. There are other options that I really, we need to take a pause. We're at three minutes, so. Okay, okay. For these reasons, let me just jump ahead. I'll say, I just want to say it's, a special end use can only be approved and the commission can make clear evidence-based findings that the use will be compatible with the surrounding homes, will not be detrimental to nearby properties, will not create unacceptable traffic noise or intensification of use. And at this time, the record does not support those findings. For this reasons, for these reasons, we respectfully- So, can we do it, can't tackle that as far as interaction with the request a planning commission deny the requested expansion to provide ample opportunity for you all to gather and fully review objective and current standards and methodologies concerning the impacts of pickleball courts placed right next to homes that are utilizing the appropriate methodology and to permit BCC another opportunity to seek an alternative less intrusive option and meet with neighbors to hopefully find a compatible resolution. Thank you. Thank you. I think the lady was, yeah, I think she was up first, so, okay. Good evening, George Dogard, 1619, Fairway, Birmingham, formerly on the Birmingham Planning Board. And just a couple of quick ones. I didn't hear a couple of things, just a technicality. So was the measurement assuming all four courts, the pickleball being hit at the same time? As far as the DB level? We'll finish it. We'll answer questions when we go. Secondly, I didn't hear any information as far as experience with treks and sound walls used throughout the country. Is that a standard use? I haven't heard of that. And just for your information, Birmingham just installed at Crestview, which isn't too far away. Another soundproof barrier on the south side of that wall. I don't know how it's working, but it's certainly not treks. No one could look it up is? So that, uh, as far as, uh... research on other materials you might want to look into that I do live about a half mile and I'm not sure if I hear sometimes if it's the paddle ball at Birmingham Country Club or the pickleball at Crestview it's about a half
I think the lady was, yeah, I think she was up first, so, okay. Good evening, George Dogard, 1619, Fairway, Birmingham, formerly on the Birmingham Planning Board. And just a couple of quick ones. I didn't hear a couple of things, just a technicality. So was the measurement assuming all four courts, the pickleball being hit at the same time? As far as the DB level? We'll finish it. We'll answer questions when we go. Secondly, I didn't hear any information as far as experience with treks and sound walls used throughout the country. Is that a standard use? I haven't heard of that. And just for your information, Birmingham just installed at Crestview, which isn't too far away. Another soundproof barrier on the south side of that wall. I don't know how it's working, but it's certainly not treks. No one could look it up is? So that, uh, as far as, uh... research on other materials you might want to look into that I do live about a half mile and I'm not sure if I hear sometimes if it's the paddle ball at Birmingham Country Club or the pickleball at Crestview it's about a half mile each way but anyway I do hear that thank you thank you very much and North 1625 North Lawn Boulevard Birmingham Michigan Bloomfield Township good afternoon thank you for the thoughtfully prepared packet it's very lovely just for the reference let's talk a little bit about DBs a chipper shredder is 104 DBs a red max blower is 75 to 95 a home generator a large one is 125 and up so a refrigerator with a decibel meter is 50 it's very quiet it's lovely comparatively so let's talk a little bit about noise noise and sound is vertical and horizontal both it's carried by wind the wind patterns around here in the 7 to 9 to 10 range but recently they've been 13 to 21 you cannot break leaves at that level right
Birmingham Country Club or the pickleball at Crestview it's about a half mile each way but anyway I do hear that thank you thank you very much and North 1625 North Lawn Boulevard Birmingham Michigan Bloomfield Township good afternoon thank you for the thoughtfully prepared packet it's very lovely just for the reference let's talk a little bit about DBs a chipper shredder is 104 DBs a red max blower is 75 to 95 a home generator a large one is 125 and up so a refrigerator with a decibel meter is 50 it's very quiet it's lovely comparatively so let's talk a little bit about noise noise and sound is vertical and horizontal both it's carried by wind the wind patterns around here in the 7 to 9 to 10 range but recently they've been 13 to 21 you cannot break leaves at that level right I live directly across from the pickleball courts on North Lawn Boulevard. If you'll bring up that picture, you can see my home and the neighbor's home on North Lawn. I live comfortably beside the Birmingham golf course maintenance shed. So noise is not lineal. We talked a little bit about apparent sound where 25 actually sounds like 50. I think people need to understand that discussion where as well as 10 decibels is actually double. So I can stand on North Lawn Street and hear the singer singing word for word from a party. I can hear air compressors. I can hear mowers, blowers, golf carts, lovely language from the golfers. Heavy machinery and generators going off all times a day and then add in swim meets from pools and special events. I love happy people and I love seeing the celebrations that Birmingham brings to the table. But understand when you add a 150 kilowatt generator to the mix, that's a lot too.
I live directly across from the pickleball courts on North Lawn Boulevard. If you'll bring up that picture, you can see my home and the neighbor's home on North Lawn. I live comfortably beside the Birmingham golf course maintenance shed. So noise is not lineal. We talked a little bit about apparent sound where 25 actually sounds like 50. I think people need to understand that discussion where as well as 10 decibels is actually double. So I can stand on North Lawn Street and hear the singer singing word for word from a party. I can hear air compressors. I can hear mowers, blowers, golf carts, lovely language from the golfers. Heavy machinery and generators going off all times a day and then add in swim meets from pools and special events. I love happy people and I love seeing the celebrations that Birmingham brings to the table. But understand when you add a 150 kilowatt generator to the mix, that's a lot too. And there was previously supposed to be some sound mitigation around it that has not to affect this happened. But so representing all of the people and the homeowners. the singers. how, if this passes and there turns out to be a decibel problem, what is their recourse? We don't like rework. We would prefer that you enclose it like Rochester does or townships that have enclosed pickleball courts and then everybody might be happy. So, for instance, at Franklin, I'm a landscaper. I can work and hear three blocks away the pickleball courts and the noise. So thank you very much for your time. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much. This one? Right there. Yeah. I'm confused. My name is Lisa Hudson and my address is 18439 Saxon, which is directly across from the proposed pickleball courts.
But understand when you add a 150 kilowatt generator to the mix, that's a lot too. And there was previously supposed to be some sound mitigation around it that has not to affect this happened. But so representing all of the people and the homeowners. the singers. how, if this passes and there turns out to be a decibel problem, what is their recourse? We don't like rework. We would prefer that you enclose it like Rochester does or townships that have enclosed pickleball courts and then everybody might be happy. So, for instance, at Franklin, I'm a landscaper. I can work and hear three blocks away the pickleball courts and the noise. So thank you very much for your time. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much. This one? Right there. Yeah. I'm confused. My name is Lisa Hudson and my address is 18439 Saxon, which is directly across from the proposed pickleball courts. I can tell you just the existing paddle ball, which theoretically is less obnoxious than pickleball sound-wise. I had to move my front bedroom cannot be used as a bedroom. 7 a.m. to 10 p.m., bonk, bonk, bonk, does not work for sleeping. You have to improve panties. It's a strategy that's authentic, but I tell him I'm getting into it, but that's veryyyylle You have to listen and see if it's also artistic, I'm into a background, but that's crazy. That's very competitive, and I was in. much else to be honest. I know this isn't the topic necessarily. I think the current paddle ball courts should have walls put around them. There's very little of my house that is not already completely infected by the bonk, bonk noise. Although I've replaced my windows, I'm doing, you know, kind of everything I can to make it better. I've moved my bedroom to the back of the house, not because I prefer that room except for the noise. So to me it's just like a common sense thing of, I mean a country club theoretically has, you know, intelligent well-to-do people who should want to be good neighbors, want to be good examples for their
My name is Lisa Hudson and my address is 18439 Saxon, which is directly across from the proposed pickleball courts. I can tell you just the existing paddle ball, which theoretically is less obnoxious than pickleball sound-wise. I had to move my front bedroom cannot be used as a bedroom. 7 a.m. to 10 p.m., bonk, bonk, bonk, does not work for sleeping. You have to improve panties. It's a strategy that's authentic, but I tell him I'm getting into it, but that's veryyyylle You have to listen and see if it's also artistic, I'm into a background, but that's crazy. That's very competitive, and I was in. much else to be honest. I know this isn't the topic necessarily. I think the current paddle ball courts should have walls put around them. There's very little of my house that is not already completely infected by the bonk, bonk noise. Although I've replaced my windows, I'm doing, you know, kind of everything I can to make it better. I've moved my bedroom to the back of the house, not because I prefer that room except for the noise. So to me it's just like a common sense thing of, I mean a country club theoretically has, you know, intelligent well-to-do people who should want to be good neighbors, want to be good examples for their kids, want to, you know, all these things. And that's just not happening. 7 a.m. is too early, at least for the current ones at 7 a.m. And 10 p.m. is too late. And the, I don't know, whatever noise it starts around 7 something of cleaning, it sounds like pressure washing every morning. So I'm doing my best to kind of keep my house, I want to live here forever. That's my intention. And I love sports and, you know, people having fun. But they still continue to swear and to play music when they shouldn't and to drink alcohol there when they shouldn't. And I mean, I mean, it's people are people and so I just think that if there's a new structure, that's just really bad. And I don't know about the whole wall thing. I used to live on a pond and I can tell you sound travels. But so basically I think, you know, like the other people were saying, it may technically be a four year old thing, but why is it four years old?
well-to-do people who should want to be good neighbors, want to be good examples for their kids, want to, you know, all these things. And that's just not happening. 7 a.m. is too early, at least for the current ones at 7 a.m. And 10 p.m. is too late. And the, I don't know, whatever noise it starts around 7 something of cleaning, it sounds like pressure washing every morning. So I'm doing my best to kind of keep my house, I want to live here forever. That's my intention. And I love sports and, you know, people having fun. But they still continue to swear and to play music when they shouldn't and to drink alcohol there when they shouldn't. And I mean, I mean, it's people are people and so I just think that if there's a new structure, that's just really bad. And I don't know about the whole wall thing. I used to live on a pond and I can tell you sound travels. But so basically I think, you know, like the other people were saying, it may technically be a four year old thing, but why is it four years old? There must be some issues with this. I think what they have already is very problematic and to add this other thing would just really be a mistake. That's all. Just like your common sense sort of observation as the guy across the street. And that's it. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Hi, my name's Chris Sarver. I'm at 18837 Saxon. I'm directly across from the paddle ball courts. And they are a noise problem as it is right now. We tried to fight those and it went through. And now we're adding more to it. I also agree that. if you know that there's a problem with the sound, you're adding the wall, then something should go up with the paddle ball also. And the treks, I mean, I'm not an engineer,
There must be some issues with this. I think what they have already is very problematic and to add this other thing would just really be a mistake. That's all. Just like your common sense sort of observation as the guy across the street. And that's it. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Hi, my name's Chris Sarver. I'm at 18837 Saxon. I'm directly across from the paddle ball courts. And they are a noise problem as it is right now. We tried to fight those and it went through. And now we're adding more to it. I also agree that. if you know that there's a problem with the sound, you're adding the wall, then something should go up with the paddle ball also. And the treks, I mean, I'm not an engineer, but just the thought of taking decking and thinking that's going to help doesn't equate of, like, soundproofing on a wall or soundproofing on a ceiling. I have to believe that there's some kind of better option than treks decking turned into a wall. Also, there isn't a wall on going towards the Norfolk side, which, if a wall is the answer, then I think the wall should go all the way around or enclose these, do something like dome or something over them so that they can do it and it won't affect anything and it won't affect the neighbors. And I think the moratorium's already, you already know there's a problem. I mean, I think every city in America knows there's a pickleball problem.
And the treks, I mean, I'm not an engineer, but just the thought of taking decking and thinking that's going to help doesn't equate of, like, soundproofing on a wall or soundproofing on a ceiling. I have to believe that there's some kind of better option than treks decking turned into a wall. Also, there isn't a wall on going towards the Norfolk side, which, if a wall is the answer, then I think the wall should go all the way around or enclose these, do something like dome or something over them so that they can do it and it won't affect anything and it won't affect the neighbors. And I think the moratorium's already, you already know there's a problem. I mean, I think every city in America knows there's a pickleball problem. It's what are we going to do that's best for the neighbors. And I really want you to think if you lived where we live or if it was right next to your house, how would you feel? And I think that's really the bottom line. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Molly Drake, 18816, Riverside Drive. Before I start, could you put the cart path slide up where the proposed path is that, thank you. Can I just ask a question to Birmingham? No. Oh, excuse me. We'll answer your question. I'm asking if this is a slide that is reflecting the pickleball courts currently, like where they are. Do you see the path that goes between, what are those? Those are the path courts. Okay, I just want to, so then to the right of that. It's not there. Okay, so that path goes through there. That's all I wanted to know there. Before, again, I want to thank all those that have come here to speak, Birmingham Country Club included,
It's what are we going to do that's best for the neighbors. And I really want you to think if you lived where we live or if it was right next to your house, how would you feel? And I think that's really the bottom line. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Molly Drake, 18816, Riverside Drive. Before I start, could you put the cart path slide up where the proposed path is that, thank you. Can I just ask a question to Birmingham? No. Oh, excuse me. We'll answer your question. I'm asking if this is a slide that is reflecting the pickleball courts currently, like where they are. Do you see the path that goes between, what are those? Those are the path courts. Okay, I just want to, so then to the right of that. It's not there. Okay, so that path goes through there. That's all I wanted to know there. Before, again, I want to thank all those that have come here to speak, Birmingham Country Club included, and thank you for your time and effort in deliberating all of the letters, all of the information that has... been given to you it's a lot to decipher so I just want to leave you with three questions for you just to ponder over and think before you make these decisions question number one compared to what so as you are making this decision should Birmingham Country Club have or be allowed these variances compared to what compared to previous rulings that have been made but compared to what should they be allowed to have these courts in this location under the circumstances they're asking number two at what cost at what cost to the neighbors at what cost to the neighborhood that it's being put in and number three what hard evidence do you have that everything that's been stated here is in fact true will come about so that when things proceed forward all the information has been on the table do you have all that information are you clear to make that decision and I'll leave you that not all there's not a solution for
Before, again, I want to thank all those that have come here to speak, Birmingham Country Club included, and thank you for your time and effort in deliberating all of the letters, all of the information that has... been given to you it's a lot to decipher so I just want to leave you with three questions for you just to ponder over and think before you make these decisions question number one compared to what so as you are making this decision should Birmingham Country Club have or be allowed these variances compared to what compared to previous rulings that have been made but compared to what should they be allowed to have these courts in this location under the circumstances they're asking number two at what cost at what cost to the neighbors at what cost to the neighborhood that it's being put in and number three what hard evidence do you have that everything that's been stated here is in fact true will come about so that when things proceed forward all the information has been on the table do you have all that information are you clear to make that decision and I'll leave you that not all there's not a solution for all things just a tolerance and I'm hoping that your decision will reflect a tolerance for the neighbors that live adjacent to this club so thank you thank you very much all right I don't see anybody else standing up so I'm gonna right I'm gonna close the hearing let's close that comment hearing and first before we go any further I want to thank you all for treating us respect for your arguments, good arguments. You spoke nicely, and we really do appreciate that based on some current experiences. All right. So, now, well, the three questions I think that the last person asked, I think they were more rhetorical, that we should consider them, but there were three questions prior to that that I think we should answer. When the sound, first one was, were all four courts being used at once? The sound was that taken into consideration, or was it just one? So, let's get an answer to that. All four courts were recorded. Okay. So, the ones that are currently used. No, I meant as far as pickleball. Yes, pickleball. Okay, got it. Yeah, there were pickleball games going on, four of them. Okay. And that's what the recordings
to make that decision and I'll leave you that not all there's not a solution for all things just a tolerance and I'm hoping that your decision will reflect a tolerance for the neighbors that live adjacent to this club so thank you thank you very much all right I don't see anybody else standing up so I'm gonna right I'm gonna close the hearing let's close that comment hearing and first before we go any further I want to thank you all for treating us respect for your arguments, good arguments. You spoke nicely, and we really do appreciate that based on some current experiences. All right. So, now, well, the three questions I think that the last person asked, I think they were more rhetorical, that we should consider them, but there were three questions prior to that that I think we should answer. When the sound, first one was, were all four courts being used at once? The sound was that taken into consideration, or was it just one? So, let's get an answer to that. All four courts were recorded. Okay. So, the ones that are currently used. No, I meant as far as pickleball. Yes, pickleball. Okay, got it. Yeah, there were pickleball games going on, four of them. Okay. And that's what the recordings were based on. Great. So, that answers that. Second question, you know, I better put my glasses on so you can see what the question was. It was, is Trex decking as a wall, is that used throughout the country? Is it, do you have any, any anecdotal evidence about where it's being used or how it's being used now in other places? Yes, as a sound wall. Sorry? As a sound wall. As a sound wall. Oh, yeah, obviously. As a sound wall. So, no study was done specifically regarding, like, Trex specific structures, but based on our conversations and research with the sound engineer, knowing the pounds per square foot that is required to block sound to an appropriate motion. at level and knowing the pound per square foot of Trex composite, we believe, and the evidence shows that it would be a sufficient sound value. Okay. But you didn't look at other places using it, I mean, you just used the engineering, your engineering studies and your recommendations for that particular? Correct. Okay. That, I think that answers the question. And the last one is, I think, I think you, maybe, Andrew, you can answer, what is recourse if after it's done, all of a sudden, it's way noisier than what was planned?
Yeah, there were pickleball games going on, four of them. Okay. And that's what the recordings were based on. Great. So, that answers that. Second question, you know, I better put my glasses on so you can see what the question was. It was, is Trex decking as a wall, is that used throughout the country? Is it, do you have any, any anecdotal evidence about where it's being used or how it's being used now in other places? Yes, as a sound wall. Sorry? As a sound wall. As a sound wall. Oh, yeah, obviously. As a sound wall. So, no study was done specifically regarding, like, Trex specific structures, but based on our conversations and research with the sound engineer, knowing the pounds per square foot that is required to block sound to an appropriate motion. at level and knowing the pound per square foot of Trex composite, we believe, and the evidence shows that it would be a sufficient sound value. Okay. But you didn't look at other places using it, I mean, you just used the engineering, your engineering studies and your recommendations for that particular? Correct. Okay. That, I think that answers the question. And the last one is, I think, I think you, maybe, Andrew, you can answer, what is recourse if after it's done, all of a sudden, it's way noisier than what was planned? That's easy. Mike? Sorry? It's a violation. Go ahead. We've dealt with that, but go ahead. I think they want to know, so let's hear it. Well, we have dealt with those type of noise complaints and those type of complaints that you've heard this evening in regards to whether it's operations at the warming hut. We have addressed those in the past through our ordinance division and have worked with the club to hopefully work as part of their policy, which it sounds like they have been working on policies. So that would be something that we would look to work with the club in order to address any of those issues that do arise like we have in the past and as we would continue to do any time we have any noise complaints around the township related to residents and adjoining properties. So those are addressed and we do work with the club and we look for them to install and to enforce policies and operations. done. And they look for them together and they look for them and they look for them. to immediate and to remedy those concerns and issues thank you all right now let's go any comments any I do just follow with Andrea Andrea do you know offhand do you recall the material they use for the sound wall of Birmingham
if after it's done, all of a sudden, it's way noisier than what was planned? That's easy. Mike? Sorry? It's a violation. Go ahead. We've dealt with that, but go ahead. I think they want to know, so let's hear it. Well, we have dealt with those type of noise complaints and those type of complaints that you've heard this evening in regards to whether it's operations at the warming hut. We have addressed those in the past through our ordinance division and have worked with the club to hopefully work as part of their policy, which it sounds like they have been working on policies. So that would be something that we would look to work with the club in order to address any of those issues that do arise like we have in the past and as we would continue to do any time we have any noise complaints around the township related to residents and adjoining properties. So those are addressed and we do work with the club and we look for them to install and to enforce policies and operations. done. And they look for them together and they look for them and they look for them. to immediate and to remedy those concerns and issues thank you all right now let's go any comments any I do just follow with Andrea Andrea do you know offhand do you recall the material they use for the sound wall of Birmingham athletic club oh I thought I was I was thinking that you're gonna ask me that because it was not it was not track we can see if that's something that we could pull up we could we could probably get that answer if we have a few minutes if even if Corey wants to yeah we can definitely look into and get an answer okay and I I know also we can get on the height issue in a moment but that if there were continued concerns with the sound from pickleball even with the sound wall that's being installed there that I know we put the additional requirement that more sound barrier walls be installed that was one of our conditions that is correct okay I believe it was I if I recall correctly I thought it was a fencing material with some sort of a screening in it maybe even less substantial than what's being proposed now so I'm not but I will get we'll get the answer for you so we have a we're accurate anybody else have anything well I think it might be appropriate for the sound engineer to touch on some of the other
offhand do you recall the material they use for the sound wall of Birmingham athletic club oh I thought I was I was thinking that you're gonna ask me that because it was not it was not track we can see if that's something that we could pull up we could we could probably get that answer if we have a few minutes if even if Corey wants to yeah we can definitely look into and get an answer okay and I I know also we can get on the height issue in a moment but that if there were continued concerns with the sound from pickleball even with the sound wall that's being installed there that I know we put the additional requirement that more sound barrier walls be installed that was one of our conditions that is correct okay I believe it was I if I recall correctly I thought it was a fencing material with some sort of a screening in it maybe even less substantial than what's being proposed now so I'm not but I will get we'll get the answer for you so we have a we're accurate anybody else have anything well I think it might be appropriate for the sound engineer to touch on some of the other competitive thoughts about the engineering modeling and fast and slow and I'll just to give her a chance yes so there is no standardized way of measuring pickleball sound what the other report the peer review report was getting at is that there are different ways to measure sound level and the the level that we selected because it was not specified from the township as we selected what most or most jurisdictions use which is the slow waiting and do I think it's necessarily appropriate to measure impulse type sounds no but it's what again most most jurisdictions use and so because it wasn't specified that's what we selected do I think that impulse is appropriate for and that's the the numbers that are in there so just so that you guys know again it's imagine this little small slice of energy happening over a very quick period of time if you take that that slice of energy and average it over larger and larger time periods that peak level will start to drop and it drops the amount it
competitive thoughts about the engineering modeling and fast and slow and I'll just to give her a chance yes so there is no standardized way of measuring pickleball sound what the other report the peer review report was getting at is that there are different ways to measure sound level and the the level that we selected because it was not specified from the township as we selected what most or most jurisdictions use which is the slow waiting and do I think it's necessarily appropriate to measure impulse type sounds no but it's what again most most jurisdictions use and so because it wasn't specified that's what we selected do I think that impulse is appropriate for and that's the the numbers that are in there so just so that you guys know again it's imagine this little small slice of energy happening over a very quick period of time if you take that that slice of energy and average it over larger and larger time periods that peak level will start to drop and it drops the amount it depending on how much time you're spreading that energy over so that's the difference between a slow waiting which is one second or 1,000 milliseconds in the report, 125 milliseconds for fast weighting. And impulse is actually an asymmetric thing, trying to get at how the ear reacts. And as far as level, the ear has a 35 millisecond time reaction. So this is why you might like a very, like a banging on metal or something. People, you know, don't go with hearing protection. They're just hammering away. Your ear's not responding fast enough to hear just how much energy is there. And so that's what the impulse measurement is getting at. To measure an impulse and use that, which I'm not sure I'd have to look back. We don't use it because I don't know if it's truly standardized. I think it does have an old standard, but it might have been superseded by another standard.
time periods that peak level will start to drop and it drops the amount it depending on how much time you're spreading that energy over so that's the difference between a slow waiting which is one second or 1,000 milliseconds in the report, 125 milliseconds for fast weighting. And impulse is actually an asymmetric thing, trying to get at how the ear reacts. And as far as level, the ear has a 35 millisecond time reaction. So this is why you might like a very, like a banging on metal or something. People, you know, don't go with hearing protection. They're just hammering away. Your ear's not responding fast enough to hear just how much energy is there. And so that's what the impulse measurement is getting at. To measure an impulse and use that, which I'm not sure I'd have to look back. We don't use it because I don't know if it's truly standardized. I think it does have an old standard, but it might have been superseded by another standard. The reason we don't use it is because the meters that law enforcement have don't measure it. And it's very difficult to understand what you're measuring. If a bird is chirping nearby, that could set the meter off on, you know, excessive impulse noise versus if you're trying to measure something further away. It's very complex on how to measure something. So we use, that's why most jurisdictions. Thank you. use slow is because it does take those kind of random things and average it out over time. In an ideal world, they would hire an acoustics consultant all the time and we could go in and snip out the bird chirping and snip out the door slam and then get at the true what we're trying to assess. But that's too expensive, it doesn't happen. We are say like we're the consultant on staff for Grand Rapids and so when they get to a particular thorny issue they do call us in and we're not the only consultant that is on again on call essentially for different jurisdictions. So as you're, and I'm saying, so the report is saying that the sound levels are higher.
The reason we don't use it is because the meters that law enforcement have don't measure it. And it's very difficult to understand what you're measuring. If a bird is chirping nearby, that could set the meter off on, you know, excessive impulse noise versus if you're trying to measure something further away. It's very complex on how to measure something. So we use, that's why most jurisdictions. Thank you. use slow is because it does take those kind of random things and average it out over time. In an ideal world, they would hire an acoustics consultant all the time and we could go in and snip out the bird chirping and snip out the door slam and then get at the true what we're trying to assess. But that's too expensive, it doesn't happen. We are say like we're the consultant on staff for Grand Rapids and so when they get to a particular thorny issue they do call us in and we're not the only consultant that is on again on call essentially for different jurisdictions. So as you're, and I'm saying, so the report is saying that the sound levels are higher. Well, they are when you're measuring impulse because you're taking just a little slice over, right, you're taking the little slice as opposed to averaging it out over more time. And so that's the difference between the reports. So we are trying to comply more with what police departments can measure and what most jurisdictions require for their noise ordinance. It was not specified here what the 50 needed to be and so we just defaulted to what's common. Yeah, nobody's criticizing your report and clearly you're- Oh no, I can- justify everything that's in there. Clearly you're an expert, but there's always different ways to slice an apple. That's right, and especially with non-standardized. I think the net question is, if you used other forms of testing, would the DB level be different where you measured it, and secondly, is Pickle unique enough that the reach and the reverberation is something different, so that these people that are further away can still hear the impact.
So as you're, and I'm saying, so the report is saying that the sound levels are higher. Well, they are when you're measuring impulse because you're taking just a little slice over, right, you're taking the little slice as opposed to averaging it out over more time. And so that's the difference between the reports. So we are trying to comply more with what police departments can measure and what most jurisdictions require for their noise ordinance. It was not specified here what the 50 needed to be and so we just defaulted to what's common. Yeah, nobody's criticizing your report and clearly you're- Oh no, I can- justify everything that's in there. Clearly you're an expert, but there's always different ways to slice an apple. That's right, and especially with non-standardized. I think the net question is, if you used other forms of testing, would the DB level be different where you measured it, and secondly, is Pickle unique enough that the reach and the reverberation is something different, so that these people that are further away can still hear the impact. No, the sound propagation is the same. What it is is the character of the sound, and so that's what most people are keying into, is the character, and it'll be annoying to some and not annoying to others. And your first question, I'm not sure I covered that. What I asked was, if you used the FAST method or an alternate method, would the DB rating at the property line or wherever the measurement is important to, would it be different? It would be different, but your requirement might be different also. Because what did you, what is your 50? That's probably not something that you had considered when you said 50. Because it's, it's, again, it's so. so highly technical that a lot of people would say, oh, 50 DBA. That sounds great until you have to actually measure it or model it. And then you have to make some assumptions and I gave you the basis for our assumptions.
can still hear the impact. No, the sound propagation is the same. What it is is the character of the sound, and so that's what most people are keying into, is the character, and it'll be annoying to some and not annoying to others. And your first question, I'm not sure I covered that. What I asked was, if you used the FAST method or an alternate method, would the DB rating at the property line or wherever the measurement is important to, would it be different? It would be different, but your requirement might be different also. Because what did you, what is your 50? That's probably not something that you had considered when you said 50. Because it's, it's, again, it's so. so highly technical that a lot of people would say, oh, 50 DBA. That sounds great until you have to actually measure it or model it. And then you have to make some assumptions and I gave you the basis for our assumptions. There's a lot of factors. Anybody else? All right, any comments, anything? Anybody have any motions they want to make? The one thing I wanted to address, I know we have a moratorium in the township about new applications. It does not impact applications that are already in progress. And at the same time, part of what we're looking for in the moratorium study and research will be impervious substances like you had brought up, lighting, which is not an issue. And so I think that whole issue of a moratorium is not relevant to the petition applications before us. I just like to say I find it problematic on a lot of levels and I think across the country, many jurisdictions are also finding the same thing. And in fact, the regulating authority of pickleball, I don't know their name. I know there is one, just like the golf, you know, PGA and tennis authority. But that's why there is a regulating – that's why they have a regulating authority,
And then you have to make some assumptions and I gave you the basis for our assumptions. There's a lot of factors. Anybody else? All right, any comments, anything? Anybody have any motions they want to make? The one thing I wanted to address, I know we have a moratorium in the township about new applications. It does not impact applications that are already in progress. And at the same time, part of what we're looking for in the moratorium study and research will be impervious substances like you had brought up, lighting, which is not an issue. And so I think that whole issue of a moratorium is not relevant to the petition applications before us. I just like to say I find it problematic on a lot of levels and I think across the country, many jurisdictions are also finding the same thing. And in fact, the regulating authority of pickleball, I don't know their name. I know there is one, just like the golf, you know, PGA and tennis authority. But that's why there is a regulating – that's why they have a regulating authority, authority for pickleball is looking into ways to, number one, make the courts not so noisy when the ball gets hit, and the rackets and the balls different so that they can expand. Because right now, it's hard to expand into areas because it is so noisy. And so I know that it's a problem. I'm not convinced myself that putting up a wall, even if it goes around the whole thing, is going to make a difference. So I just, I think it's, to me, it's a problem. I think there's problems here, but that's my opinion. So we'll see if anybody wants to make a motion. Yes, sorry. Andrea. Just want to answer Neil's question. It was a up to 12-foot acoustic fence is what it was. So it was more of a fencing material with an acoustical paneling in it. Thank you. All right. So it's still here, the commission. Does anybody want to make a motion or not? Anybody? If no motion is made, then it fails. I'm going to count it. I'll count it down. Three, two, one.
authority for pickleball is looking into ways to, number one, make the courts not so noisy when the ball gets hit, and the rackets and the balls different so that they can expand. Because right now, it's hard to expand into areas because it is so noisy. And so I know that it's a problem. I'm not convinced myself that putting up a wall, even if it goes around the whole thing, is going to make a difference. So I just, I think it's, to me, it's a problem. I think there's problems here, but that's my opinion. So we'll see if anybody wants to make a motion. Yes, sorry. Andrea. Just want to answer Neil's question. It was a up to 12-foot acoustic fence is what it was. So it was more of a fencing material with an acoustical paneling in it. Thank you. All right. So it's still here, the commission. Does anybody want to make a motion or not? Anybody? If no motion is made, then it fails. I'm going to count it. I'll count it down. Three, two, one. Okay. I'm going to say that there's no motion so that at this point, we can't recommend to the city, the city, the township board of trustees, a favorable recommendation. all so I think at this point if I'm not mistaken under Robert's rules no motion made it's a dead issue it's finished I think that's the correct correct anybody have any I don't know if that's what we ought to be doing but I do agree with you that this is a problem well okay I mean I think they should be able to use their facilities without any kind of impact to their neighbors right well additional impact so what do you recommend so we can make it I'm sorry what is the board thing I'm a little bit at a loss of what such a thing as a motion to deny yes any you can make a motion anything you want to table it yeah you can no don't table it we've done that we've tabled them like it let's make a decision so if you want to make a motion again I'm asking for a motion something I make a motion to deny all right there's a motion the floor to deny is there a second for that well as chair I can't I generally won't but is there a motion is there a
Three, two, one. Okay. I'm going to say that there's no motion so that at this point, we can't recommend to the city, the city, the township board of trustees, a favorable recommendation. all so I think at this point if I'm not mistaken under Robert's rules no motion made it's a dead issue it's finished I think that's the correct correct anybody have any I don't know if that's what we ought to be doing but I do agree with you that this is a problem well okay I mean I think they should be able to use their facilities without any kind of impact to their neighbors right well additional impact so what do you recommend so we can make it I'm sorry what is the board thing I'm a little bit at a loss of what such a thing as a motion to deny yes any you can make a motion anything you want to table it yeah you can no don't table it we've done that we've tabled them like it let's make a decision so if you want to make a motion again I'm asking for a motion something I make a motion to deny all right there's a motion the floor to deny is there a second for that well as chair I can't I generally won't but is there a motion is there a second to that motion because this is a special land use if there is an emotion to deny you would have to use your criteria within that special land use request and why you're denying it so within your staff report we have laid out the criteria for consideration of a special land use so we would ask you to have some criteria in which the denial is being stated I'll make them I can't make a motion they won't chairman the chair never does but what can suggest is that we make a motion a motion to approve it have it seconded and then vote it on and we can vote it down if you don't want it or vote it up that's another way to do this oh i see so in other words a motion tonight i think you have to have those i'll withdraw yeah well it's it failed because there was no second so i'm still waiting for something well i think there's some hesitation because not all of the issues in my mind have been addressed personally i'm not you know criticizing any of the experts but right the quality of the wall comes into question to me and i know what you're going to say make a motion about what the wall could be the location is still a little suspect in my opinion
that well as chair I can't I generally won't but is there a motion is there a second to that motion because this is a special land use if there is an emotion to deny you would have to use your criteria within that special land use request and why you're denying it so within your staff report we have laid out the criteria for consideration of a special land use so we would ask you to have some criteria in which the denial is being stated I'll make them I can't make a motion they won't chairman the chair never does but what can suggest is that we make a motion a motion to approve it have it seconded and then vote it on and we can vote it down if you don't want it or vote it up that's another way to do this oh i see so in other words a motion tonight i think you have to have those i'll withdraw yeah well it's it failed because there was no second so i'm still waiting for something well i think there's some hesitation because not all of the issues in my mind have been addressed personally i'm not you know criticizing any of the experts but right the quality of the wall comes into question to me and i know what you're going to say make a motion about what the wall could be the location is still a little suspect in my opinion so are you are you saying the only way to to stop this is to make a motion to approve and then nobody approves it i think that's the way to do it is to is to that would be about the best way is to move it second it vote on it and either get it i'm not going to say what to do either get an approval i'm a jar for voting yes or not i think that's the way to do it but either the the approval you've been supporting or against by the way yeah either the approval or denial has reasons no the approval the approval rejecting an approval does not you can just you can just say no I think that we have conditions already. I would recommend that if the option or the motion is to deny, that the board should be prepared to address under what conditions they are denying. The applicant should be aware under what conditions and criteria in which the special land use request or site plan is being denied. So what about a motion to approve? That's seconded, and that either does or doesn't get, let's just say for argument's sake, a motion to approve is seconded, but then it doesn't get four votes.
motion about what the wall could be the location is still a little suspect in my opinion so are you are you saying the only way to to stop this is to make a motion to approve and then nobody approves it i think that's the way to do it is to is to that would be about the best way is to move it second it vote on it and either get it i'm not going to say what to do either get an approval i'm a jar for voting yes or not i think that's the way to do it but either the the approval you've been supporting or against by the way yeah either the approval or denial has reasons no the approval the approval rejecting an approval does not you can just you can just say no I think that we have conditions already. I would recommend that if the option or the motion is to deny, that the board should be prepared to address under what conditions they are denying. The applicant should be aware under what conditions and criteria in which the special land use request or site plan is being denied. So what about a motion to approve? That's seconded, and that either does or doesn't get, let's just say for argument's sake, a motion to approve is seconded, but then it doesn't get four votes. What do we have to do to get okay? Yeah, that's the answer. Again, I'm going to revert back to my recommendation because I think that in the case of a special land use, you should have that criteria addressed in your denial. I think making a motion to approve. That doesn't sound right to me. What? To make a motion to approve and then none of us approve it. It's just a formality. I'm just saying. Well, it's a special land use, okay, that has very specific criteria in which the board should consider. They are listed on page, within your staff report, one, two, three, the fourth page under Article VI, Section 42, 6.2, Standards for Reviewing Special Land Uses. Thank you. consideration the size, location, and character of the proposed land use viewed within the context of surrounding land uses. I'm not going to read the whole thing. B, the proposed use shall be of a nature that will make vehicular and pedestrian traffic more hazardous than normal. I'm just abbreviating, but I
That's seconded, and that either does or doesn't get, let's just say for argument's sake, a motion to approve is seconded, but then it doesn't get four votes. What do we have to do to get okay? Yeah, that's the answer. Again, I'm going to revert back to my recommendation because I think that in the case of a special land use, you should have that criteria addressed in your denial. I think making a motion to approve. That doesn't sound right to me. What? To make a motion to approve and then none of us approve it. It's just a formality. I'm just saying. Well, it's a special land use, okay, that has very specific criteria in which the board should consider. They are listed on page, within your staff report, one, two, three, the fourth page under Article VI, Section 42, 6.2, Standards for Reviewing Special Land Uses. Thank you. consideration the size, location, and character of the proposed land use viewed within the context of surrounding land uses. I'm not going to read the whole thing. B, the proposed use shall be of a nature that will make vehicular and pedestrian traffic more hazardous than normal. I'm just abbreviating, but I would suggest that the board members look at A through 11 and I think that you should tie your denial specifically to one of those criteria related to a special land use. Or approval. Or approval, thank you. I think you said it was page 11 within your packet? Okay, page 11 within your packet, Bruce. That's not page 11. I don't know what page that is. I just found that. All right, we need to do something, folks. I hate to see it tabled again. And then have them come back again. Okay, I'll make a motion and then we can decide what we're going to do with it. Sure. Absolutely. I'll make a motion that we approve the site plan, special land use, that was presented to us with the additional conditions that the sound mitigation wall will be 12 feet. If the township is not satisfied that it's still mitigating sound, that there will be additional additional
and pedestrian traffic more hazardous than normal. I'm just abbreviating, but I would suggest that the board members look at A through 11 and I think that you should tie your denial specifically to one of those criteria related to a special land use. Or approval. Or approval, thank you. I think you said it was page 11 within your packet? Okay, page 11 within your packet, Bruce. That's not page 11. I don't know what page that is. I just found that. All right, we need to do something, folks. I hate to see it tabled again. And then have them come back again. Okay, I'll make a motion and then we can decide what we're going to do with it. Sure. Absolutely. I'll make a motion that we approve the site plan, special land use, that was presented to us with the additional conditions that the sound mitigation wall will be 12 feet. If the township is not satisfied that it's still mitigating sound, that there will be additional additional wall or height built on the facing Saxon so to the south also I'm going to add that we have one of the additional conditions that there be a sound mitigation wall built to the east not necessarily to the same size as the one to the south but something that the administrative Lee the building department is satisfied with can we do that well I would suggest that that sound perhaps if this were to move forward to the Township Board that that sound mitigation with a wall to the east be studied and produced prior to Township Board very good good that's you okay and of course that there are no lights being presented nor would we ever recommend recommend there ever be any lights in that location they had any in the additional and the additional concerns really are things that could be addressed through our ordinance department such as loud noise dealing with the country club loud noise music etc which I understand our issues or have been issues by the way just as a side note there was people who
wall or height built on the facing Saxon so to the south also I'm going to add that we have one of the additional conditions that there be a sound mitigation wall built to the east not necessarily to the same size as the one to the south but something that the administrative Lee the building department is satisfied with can we do that well I would suggest that that sound perhaps if this were to move forward to the Township Board that that sound mitigation with a wall to the east be studied and produced prior to Township Board very good good that's you okay and of course that there are no lights being presented nor would we ever recommend recommend there ever be any lights in that location they had any in the additional and the additional concerns really are things that could be addressed through our ordinance department such as loud noise dealing with the country club loud noise music etc which I understand our issues or have been issues by the way just as a side note there was people who some people had stated well we should put ourselves in your position having pickleball in your in your neighborhood I am pickleball in my neighborhood and I have a country club in front of my front lawn I have music. I have tennis. I have all sorts of noise. That's just part of living near a country club. I understand. In fact, I'm near two country clubs, one in front and one on the side. But you still, and I understand the need to want to mitigate the sound as much as possible. And that's what we're trying to do here. But at the same time, when you live in that location, that's part of what you get. I just want to minimize it as much as possible. So we have a motion on the table. Is there a second for that motion? I'll second it. Let's move to second it. Any discussion on the motion? Okay, then I'll go ahead. Looking at page 11, you know, Article 6, the Section 42-6.2 Standards, I have a hard time believing that they've been met. I know there's a motion on the table, but if you read them, I mean, in our documents here, it's page 11, and it continues on.
our issues or have been issues by the way just as a side note there was people who some people had stated well we should put ourselves in your position having pickleball in your in your neighborhood I am pickleball in my neighborhood and I have a country club in front of my front lawn I have music. I have tennis. I have all sorts of noise. That's just part of living near a country club. I understand. In fact, I'm near two country clubs, one in front and one on the side. But you still, and I understand the need to want to mitigate the sound as much as possible. And that's what we're trying to do here. But at the same time, when you live in that location, that's part of what you get. I just want to minimize it as much as possible. So we have a motion on the table. Is there a second for that motion? I'll second it. Let's move to second it. Any discussion on the motion? Okay, then I'll go ahead. Looking at page 11, you know, Article 6, the Section 42-6.2 Standards, I have a hard time believing that they've been met. I know there's a motion on the table, but if you read them, I mean, in our documents here, it's page 11, and it continues on. It's hard to say that these have been met. Okay. Can you be specific? You just vote no. You just vote no. Well, she's got to let us explain it. I understand that I want to pull this out. That's fine. So taking into consideration the size, location, and character of the proposed land use viewed within the context of surrounding land uses and land use planning for such area, the proposed shall not be incompatible. The proposed shall not be incompatible. or inharmonious as determined by the application of generally accepted planning standards and or principles with the surrounding uses the orderly development of the surrounding neighborhood that's just the first one i'm not saying that bcc shouldn't be able to use their property but i do think it impacts the neighbors and that the information we're basing our judgments on may not be entirely accurate nor encompassing unknown factors therefore the moratorium now i understand the moratorium may not apply but i don't feel confident saying that um everything has been done to you know take the neighbors concerns into consideration okay that's just the first one if you want to scroll yourself there's there's b there's c there's d e f g and you know the majority of them i think we get the point are hard for me to
in our documents here, it's page 11, and it continues on. It's hard to say that these have been met. Okay. Can you be specific? You just vote no. You just vote no. Well, she's got to let us explain it. I understand that I want to pull this out. That's fine. So taking into consideration the size, location, and character of the proposed land use viewed within the context of surrounding land uses and land use planning for such area, the proposed shall not be incompatible. The proposed shall not be incompatible. or inharmonious as determined by the application of generally accepted planning standards and or principles with the surrounding uses the orderly development of the surrounding neighborhood that's just the first one i'm not saying that bcc shouldn't be able to use their property but i do think it impacts the neighbors and that the information we're basing our judgments on may not be entirely accurate nor encompassing unknown factors therefore the moratorium now i understand the moratorium may not apply but i don't feel confident saying that um everything has been done to you know take the neighbors concerns into consideration okay that's just the first one if you want to scroll yourself there's there's b there's c there's d e f g and you know the majority of them i think we get the point are hard for me to um allow to you know as a recommendation recommending board i'd like to see bcc um improve their plan i want them to be able to use their facility with this popular you know member driven you know what would you like them to do in addition i don't know that's why i'm a little bit lost and not well the fact is though is there is a motion right and seconded so that's on the table so i can call for a vote on that and i you know another motion could be made if you had to offer we can amend it but i i agree with i don't know how to amend it is why i'm so can i hesitant comment no you can comment sure on the motion well i seconded it for a couple reasons you know one is that they have addressed almost uniformly all of the uh issues raised previously secondly the staff has reviewed this and our consultants have reviewed this
there's d e f g and you know the majority of them i think we get the point are hard for me to um allow to you know as a recommendation recommending board i'd like to see bcc um improve their plan i want them to be able to use their facility with this popular you know member driven you know what would you like them to do in addition i don't know that's why i'm a little bit lost and not well the fact is though is there is a motion right and seconded so that's on the table so i can call for a vote on that and i you know another motion could be made if you had to offer we can amend it but i i agree with i don't know how to amend it is why i'm so can i hesitant comment no you can comment sure on the motion well i seconded it for a couple reasons you know one is that they have addressed almost uniformly all of the uh issues raised previously secondly the staff has reviewed this and our consultants have reviewed this you know given the size and placement of the courts within the existing recreational area staff finds the proposal to be generally compatible with surrounding land use purposes b the addition of four pickle courts is not expected to significantly increase overall traffic for a vehicular the current complex contains six tennis courts four paddle ball courts staff finds the pickleball courts uh it will expand the facility but remain consistent with the recreational nature of the existing development the sound study was reviewed by hubble roth and clark township's engineering consultant and their letter to the tent they know that the study of 50 db sound was deemed accessible no light there's four variances they've got to get There's still a hurdle for that. I mean, the applicant deserves a response, just like the residents do, about a denial and a specific reason for the denial.
secondly the staff has reviewed this and our consultants have reviewed this you know given the size and placement of the courts within the existing recreational area staff finds the proposal to be generally compatible with surrounding land use purposes b the addition of four pickle courts is not expected to significantly increase overall traffic for a vehicular the current complex contains six tennis courts four paddle ball courts staff finds the pickleball courts uh it will expand the facility but remain consistent with the recreational nature of the existing development the sound study was reviewed by hubble roth and clark township's engineering consultant and their letter to the tent they know that the study of 50 db sound was deemed accessible no light there's four variances they've got to get There's still a hurdle for that. I mean, the applicant deserves a response, just like the residents do, about a denial and a specific reason for the denial. We're not moving to deny. Mr. Chair, I have a question. If you vote against it, there should be a reason. Why did you deny the ability to table and let them fix these things? Okay. It was only my opinion. I didn't deny anything. I just think, I just said, I would like not to see that. Why? Because, you know, we can continue this forever. What do you want them to fix? I want them to fix the things that the residents seem to have a major problem with. I would have a comment, and the reason I agree with that is that the majority of the residents are within, like, a 300 to 500 foot distance to these courts. And if the information that you had sent out this week, that's an area that is an unknown area as to how to handle noise mitigation, if I'm interpreting that correctly. Did you read the same thing? That was based on some information that was sent to me from somebody who studies pickleball and best practices. So you can take that. We haven't exactly researched it on our end. But, yeah, I mean, assuming that his information provided has been studied and verified, then I suppose that would be a consideration that you would make. Is, okay, is there a pickleball being played?
I mean, the applicant deserves a response, just like the residents do, about a denial and a specific reason for the denial. We're not moving to deny. Mr. Chair, I have a question. If you vote against it, there should be a reason. Why did you deny the ability to table and let them fix these things? Okay. It was only my opinion. I didn't deny anything. I just think, I just said, I would like not to see that. Why? Because, you know, we can continue this forever. What do you want them to fix? I want them to fix the things that the residents seem to have a major problem with. I would have a comment, and the reason I agree with that is that the majority of the residents are within, like, a 300 to 500 foot distance to these courts. And if the information that you had sent out this week, that's an area that is an unknown area as to how to handle noise mitigation, if I'm interpreting that correctly. Did you read the same thing? That was based on some information that was sent to me from somebody who studies pickleball and best practices. So you can take that. We haven't exactly researched it on our end. But, yeah, I mean, assuming that his information provided has been studied and verified, then I suppose that would be a consideration that you would make. Is, okay, is there a pickleball being played? aid at BCC now? Yeah. Yes. Well, I was just asking. Does the township have any knowledge of whether pickleball is being played there now? Other than hearing from the residents. And what? The procedure, proper procedure for this, under what I understand Robert's rules are, is that there's a motion. It's been approved. It's on the table. We can either approve the motion. We can deny it and then it's gone. And then another motion to table can be made. We can amend the motion. Well, you can amend it. I've asked. I wish I knew how. Well, that's a possibility. You have to make an amendment. We have to vote on the amendment and then the amendment becomes part of the motion if it's passed. Well, if it's not the amendment, I have to approve. Okay. Yes, to accept it. The motion to occur. So, but I mean. Actually not, but okay. I think if we vote no on the motion. They can't come back. Well, there should be a reason. I mean, that should be something that we're telling them. We just don't want pickle. We don't, you know, it's too loud. But the only. The planning commissions are recommending body. Right. I understand. So, the applicant does have the right to proceed to the zoning board of appeals.
aid at BCC now? Yeah. Yes. Well, I was just asking. Does the township have any knowledge of whether pickleball is being played there now? Other than hearing from the residents. And what? The procedure, proper procedure for this, under what I understand Robert's rules are, is that there's a motion. It's been approved. It's on the table. We can either approve the motion. We can deny it and then it's gone. And then another motion to table can be made. We can amend the motion. Well, you can amend it. I've asked. I wish I knew how. Well, that's a possibility. You have to make an amendment. We have to vote on the amendment and then the amendment becomes part of the motion if it's passed. Well, if it's not the amendment, I have to approve. Okay. Yes, to accept it. The motion to occur. So, but I mean. Actually not, but okay. I think if we vote no on the motion. They can't come back. Well, there should be a reason. I mean, that should be something that we're telling them. We just don't want pickle. We don't, you know, it's too loud. But the only. The planning commissions are recommending body. Right. I understand. So, the applicant does have the right to proceed to the zoning board of appeals. Yes. Yes. You are recommending body. It's a good point. It's a good point. I don't think the residents, in my opinion, I don't think the residents are wholly against having a pickleball. court they're against the way it's being formed now with the noise that is anticipated and there's not enough mitigation of this noise and then there's this discussion of how you measure noise to begin with I mean this is this is a difficult thing I agree with that and then the noise that's being measured that's why I asked what's being played in the court that's being measured currently is it pickleball because you know supposed to be I don't know I think she answered that pickleball stuff right at the same time right why do they need more pickleball courts well they don't have any now but they're playing but they don't have to study I you know what I really think I think we need to we need to vote not get anywhere so let's I'd like to call excuse me yeah I agree okay so I'm gonna call for a vote on okay the motion is to with the
But the only. The planning commissions are recommending body. Right. I understand. So, the applicant does have the right to proceed to the zoning board of appeals. Yes. Yes. You are recommending body. It's a good point. It's a good point. I don't think the residents, in my opinion, I don't think the residents are wholly against having a pickleball. court they're against the way it's being formed now with the noise that is anticipated and there's not enough mitigation of this noise and then there's this discussion of how you measure noise to begin with I mean this is this is a difficult thing I agree with that and then the noise that's being measured that's why I asked what's being played in the court that's being measured currently is it pickleball because you know supposed to be I don't know I think she answered that pickleball stuff right at the same time right why do they need more pickleball courts well they don't have any now but they're playing but they don't have to study I you know what I really think I think we need to we need to vote not get anywhere so let's I'd like to call excuse me yeah I agree okay so I'm gonna call for a vote on okay the motion is to with the conditions that were read is to approve the site plan okay that's the motion in second it's on the that's on the table so I'm gonna call for all's in favor of that roll call yeah well okay we can do that sure Kelly yes O'Donnell no Barnett yes Saul's no Ato no Selleck no all right so that motion motion fails motion fails okay make another favor of and we can we can keep making motions until something passes that's fine right now it's still here it's still open because the motion of proof has failed so i'd like to make a motion to table this okay to allow the applicant to fix the illustrated problems that the that the residents have indicated and to give the board further proof that sound mitigation will correct their complaints okay there's a motion another motion to table is there a second for that i second that motion any discussion on that motion all right i'll call for a vote all those in favor let's let's do it let's do a roll call yeah all right oh you're right okay okay so motion to table um kelly yes o'donnell
conditions that were read is to approve the site plan okay that's the motion in second it's on the that's on the table so I'm gonna call for all's in favor of that roll call yeah well okay we can do that sure Kelly yes O'Donnell no Barnett yes Saul's no Ato no Selleck no all right so that motion motion fails motion fails okay make another favor of and we can we can keep making motions until something passes that's fine right now it's still here it's still open because the motion of proof has failed so i'd like to make a motion to table this okay to allow the applicant to fix the illustrated problems that the that the residents have indicated and to give the board further proof that sound mitigation will correct their complaints okay there's a motion another motion to table is there a second for that i second that motion any discussion on that motion all right i'll call for a vote all those in favor let's let's do it let's do a roll call yeah all right oh you're right okay okay so motion to table um kelly yes o'donnell yes barnett no salz no atto yes sellick yes that passes so motion passes yeah okay so the motion passes so right and so we'll have to see more information we'll have to get it come back again all right that's it thank you thank you all very very much for coming here tonight thank you as far as coming keep passionate okay i think you're going to have to work with administrate with planning that's all i can tell you i'll do my best to get the best direction i can to provide you the best direction um you you you you you you you you you We'll give her some ideas. Sorry? Okay, we'll take a five-minute recess then. Five-minute recess. Meeting's back in order. We have the next item is general business items not on the agenda. Anybody have anything? I do, actually. I wanted to bring something to the attention of the board and the staff regarding our recent approval of having liquor licenses
let's do a roll call yeah all right oh you're right okay okay so motion to table um kelly yes o'donnell yes barnett no salz no atto yes sellick yes that passes so motion passes yeah okay so the motion passes so right and so we'll have to see more information we'll have to get it come back again all right that's it thank you thank you all very very much for coming here tonight thank you as far as coming keep passionate okay i think you're going to have to work with administrate with planning that's all i can tell you i'll do my best to get the best direction i can to provide you the best direction um you you you you you you you you you We'll give her some ideas. Sorry? Okay, we'll take a five-minute recess then. Five-minute recess. Meeting's back in order. We have the next item is general business items not on the agenda. Anybody have anything? I do, actually. I wanted to bring something to the attention of the board and the staff regarding our recent approval of having liquor licenses and barren wine licenses in the fuel stations. I just wanted to ask, first of all, Andrea, I know we think we have two in the township now. Do we know anything about how they've been going? Any complaints from the police department? Have they been going smooth so far? I will verify to be certain, but I have not heard of any issues, concerns, complaints, or anything related to both of the gas stations that are currently operating, one of which being at Maple and Telegraph, and then the other one being located at Woodward and Square Lake. So I have not heard anything, but I can certainly just run a formal check to find out if there's been anything in the police department. Okay, that'll be great to know. And give me a follow-up in the next meeting. So the issue that I wanted to bring up is, it's actually my fault for not thinking of it at the time, and I don't know if there's things that can be added or changed once the ordinance is approved. But so, and I know Mr. Kelly wasn't here at the time. And he's not in favor of alcoholic beverage sales. But we did lose two Rite-Aids, which both had SDD and SDM. I know a little bit about them because I used to carry one in a couple of different locations years ago.
regarding our recent approval of having liquor licenses and barren wine licenses in the fuel stations. I just wanted to ask, first of all, Andrea, I know we think we have two in the township now. Do we know anything about how they've been going? Any complaints from the police department? Have they been going smooth so far? I will verify to be certain, but I have not heard of any issues, concerns, complaints, or anything related to both of the gas stations that are currently operating, one of which being at Maple and Telegraph, and then the other one being located at Woodward and Square Lake. So I have not heard anything, but I can certainly just run a formal check to find out if there's been anything in the police department. Okay, that'll be great to know. And give me a follow-up in the next meeting. So the issue that I wanted to bring up is, it's actually my fault for not thinking of it at the time, and I don't know if there's things that can be added or changed once the ordinance is approved. But so, and I know Mr. Kelly wasn't here at the time. And he's not in favor of alcoholic beverage sales. But we did lose two Rite-Aids, which both had SDD and SDM. I know a little bit about them because I used to carry one in a couple of different locations years ago. And then we picked up the two. So I supported the motion. I still support it. But I thought that it's more secure when it was in a gas station because the drugstore used to put them out in the open, not behind a counter. In the old days, the small retailers always had the liquor part of it, at least, behind a counter. So I thought less chance of theft and, you know, encouraging young people to want to mess around with alcohol when they shouldn't be. But then I noticed when I went into the new mobile station, the one on Square Lake and Woodward, to buy a candy bar, by the way, that they had the half gallons displayed. What kind of candy bar? It was a mounds. They had the liquor displayed on the floor, which is unusual. Almost every gas station that I know of that I've worked on, they keep it behind the counter. And I said, that's, you know, I should have thought of that, that I know we eliminated the right for them to sell half pints. I wonder if we could make sure that if there's any more or we.
I know a little bit about them because I used to carry one in a couple of different locations years ago. And then we picked up the two. So I supported the motion. I still support it. But I thought that it's more secure when it was in a gas station because the drugstore used to put them out in the open, not behind a counter. In the old days, the small retailers always had the liquor part of it, at least, behind a counter. So I thought less chance of theft and, you know, encouraging young people to want to mess around with alcohol when they shouldn't be. But then I noticed when I went into the new mobile station, the one on Square Lake and Woodward, to buy a candy bar, by the way, that they had the half gallons displayed. What kind of candy bar? It was a mounds. They had the liquor displayed on the floor, which is unusual. Almost every gas station that I know of that I've worked on, they keep it behind the counter. And I said, that's, you know, I should have thought of that, that I know we eliminated the right for them to sell half pints. I wonder if we could make sure that if there's any more or we. could even go back to that particular location and ask that they keep it behind because one of the reasons I supported it is I thought it would be better for the township to have liquor secure behind a counter where you have to have an attendant versus going to a Rite Aid or the CVS at Maple and again it's open to theft and it's open for miners trying to do things so I should have thought of it originally and I didn't it's my fault because I know a little bit about the business but I don't like the idea of having it displayed other than behind the checkout counter okay well if that's something that would be considered of interest to the Planning Commission then we'd have to consider looking at an amendment to the ordinance so I guess I'd be curious to know and people can always reach out to us too and give you give us some of your thoughts or share them now yeah I certainly would be in agreement with that and that's my understanding certainly of how the Shell station on Telegraph and Maple and that's how they conduct their business and they're very serious about how they display the alcohol and that it's not easily accessible like that so no I'm in agreement that that I was actually surprised to see it
could even go back to that particular location and ask that they keep it behind because one of the reasons I supported it is I thought it would be better for the township to have liquor secure behind a counter where you have to have an attendant versus going to a Rite Aid or the CVS at Maple and again it's open to theft and it's open for miners trying to do things so I should have thought of it originally and I didn't it's my fault because I know a little bit about the business but I don't like the idea of having it displayed other than behind the checkout counter okay well if that's something that would be considered of interest to the Planning Commission then we'd have to consider looking at an amendment to the ordinance so I guess I'd be curious to know and people can always reach out to us too and give you give us some of your thoughts or share them now yeah I certainly would be in agreement with that and that's my understanding certainly of how the Shell station on Telegraph and Maple and that's how they conduct their business and they're very serious about how they display the alcohol and that it's not easily accessible like that so no I'm in agreement that that I was actually surprised to see it right on the open as soon as I walked in to see a half gallons I certainly would be open and would be receptive to a and a map addressing an amendment like that okay okay thank you thank you we can we can definitely start drafting something i'm for that too i mean i'm surprised that the control commission doesn't have a restriction on that display but and we can do some research too and find out some history on that so thank you for bringing that i we do appreciate um that feedback um and we can certainly um look into it and bring something back before the planning commission thank you thank you thanks richie anything else not on the agenda do you want to bring up okay then the next uh planning commission meeting is scheduled for may 4th right may the fourth be with you all right may the fourth be with you may the fourth people very good i like that okay we need a motion and to adjourn removed second we're adjourned thank you all very much good meeting
they're very serious about how they display the alcohol and that it's not easily accessible like that so no I'm in agreement that that I was actually surprised to see it right on the open as soon as I walked in to see a half gallons I certainly would be open and would be receptive to a and a map addressing an amendment like that okay okay thank you thank you we can we can definitely start drafting something i'm for that too i mean i'm surprised that the control commission doesn't have a restriction on that display but and we can do some research too and find out some history on that so thank you for bringing that i we do appreciate um that feedback um and we can certainly um look into it and bring something back before the planning commission thank you thank you thanks richie anything else not on the agenda do you want to bring up okay then the next uh planning commission meeting is scheduled for may 4th right may the fourth be with you all right may the fourth be with you may the fourth people very good i like that okay we need a motion and to adjourn removed second we're adjourned thank you all very much good meeting you